Being Well with Forrest Hanson and Dr. Rick Hanson

Shame is one of the hardest emotions to work with, in part because it blocks what we need most when we’re feeling shame: self-compassion. Dr. Chris Germer, co-developer of the Mindful Self-Compassion program, joins Forrest to discuss how we can get around that trap. They talk about where shame comes from, how to recognize it when it’s hiding behind other emotions, and practical tools that help us experience less shame. 

About our Guest: Chris Germer is a clinical psychologist, lecturer at Harvard Medical School, co-developer of the Mindful Self-Compassion program with Dr. Kristin Neff, and author of the new book Self-Compassion for Shame.

Key Topics:

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Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) is the world's most researched, recommended, and criticized form of therapy. Clinical psychologist Dr. Ellen Hendriksen joins Forrest to talk about what CBT is, its history, its strengths and weaknesses, and why it's gotten such a bad rap. They walk through the common criticisms: that it's spreadsheet therapy, that it's a form of self-gaslighting, and that it has an, er, "complex" relationship with insurance companies. They then apply the best of the CBT toolkit to Ellen's areas of expertise: self-criticism, perfectionism, procrastination, and social anxiety. 

About our Guest: Ellen is a clinical psychologist at Boston University's Center for Anxiety and Related Disorders and the author of How to Be Yourself and her newest book, ⁠How to Be Enough: Self-Acceptance for Self-Critics and Perfectionists⁠.

Key Topics:

00:00: Dr. Ellen Hendricksen and what differentiates CBT

7:54: Is CBT warm?

10:25: The first wave: behaviorism

19:57: The second wave: cognitive therapy and Aaron Beck

26:18: The third wave: mindfulness driven approaches

31:44: How the same problem would be handled by the three waves

34:53: Issues of fit

38:00: Critique 1: CBT is reductive

42:30: When CBT is a poor fit: trauma, intellectualizers

53:27: CBT for social anxiety and perfectionism

1:01:14: The two ingredients of perfectionism 

1:07:46: Perfectionism and procrastination 

1:25:07: Recap

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Pain psychologist Dr. Rachel Zoffness joins Forrest and Dr. Rick to explore what pain is, why it can persist long after an injury has healed, and what actually helps. Rachel explains why the brain, rather than the body part that hurts, is what constructs pain, the difference between acute and chronic pain, and the distinction between hurt (what you feel) and harm (what's damaged). They get into the biopsychosocial model, the "pain dial" that stress, sleep, mood, and social connection can turn up or down, the disappointing response rates for most pain treatments, why pain is absolutely not “just in your head,” what sham surgery and open-label placebo studies reveal about how pain works, and why the research is so hard to interpret. 

This is not medical advice. Please do not start, change, or discontinue any medication based on this episode. All decisions should be made with your doctor.

About our Guest: Dr. Rachel Zoffness is a pain psychologist, assistant clinical professor at the UCSF School of Medicine, and the author of Tell Me Where It Hurts. 

Key Topics:

0:00 Introduction

1:42 Acute vs. chronic pain

3:41 What is pain?

9:20 The biopsychosocial model

11:11 Hurt vs. harm: the tale of two nails

19:10 The pain dial

23:10 Nociception vs. pain

26:46 Your pain recipe

29:46 The "all in your head" stigma

31:23 Central sensitization

35:53 Pushback from pain patients

40:42 Loneliness and pain

46:51 Pacing

50:48 Reducing distress vs. reducing pain

54:26 Does anything work?

1:00:07 What placebo actually is

1:03:19 Acupuncture, sham surgery, and open-label placebo

1:09:42 Why the research is such a mess

1:14:10 Hopelessness, and trying one more thing

1:17:46 Mindfulness and attention

1:23:02 Advice for friends and family

1:30:22 Recap

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Dr. Rick and Forrest talk about what separates people-pleasing from the fawn response, and why those differences affect what actually helps. They trace the surprising history behind both ideas, explain each’s relationship with trauma, and answer common questions along the way. They discuss why old friendships pull you back into old patterns, when appeasement is actually the right call, how to assert your needs when people expect you to concede, and how to figure out what you want after a lifetime of tuning into everyone else. 

Sign up for Dr. Rick's new Boundaries workshop, and use promo code BeingWell25 to receive a 25% discount. RickHanson.com/Boundaries

Key Topics:

0:00: Introduction

2:05: What’s the difference between people-pleasing and “just being nice?”

8:50: Common signs of people-pleasing

21:00: Where "people-pleasing" and “fawning” come from

27:00: Pete Walker, trauma, and how the two terms got merged

30:45: "Is the conflict causing my anxiety, or is my attachment style causing the conflict?"

39:10: Becoming more assertive 

47:30: How to change relationships built on the pleasing version of you

55:15: Emotional neglect, shame, and learning what you want

1:04:30: Recap

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Forrest is joined by his parents, psychologist Dr. Rick Hanson and nutritionist Jan Hanson, to discuss "Depleted Mother Syndrome:” the exhaustion, brain fog, and low mood so many mothers experience. They talk about how Jan hit bottom in the years after Forrest and his sister were born, why the hardest stretch often comes two or more years after birth, the problem with dismissing these experiences as "just motherhood,” and how people can recover.

Key Topics:

00:00: Intro & welcome Jan!

2:39: What inspired the book

10:02: Dr. Rick’s perspective

13:30: Depleted Mother Syndrome

18:33: The accumulated impacts of motherhood 

25:44: Taking care of your health as a mom

36:40: Rick & Jan’s personal experience

50:08: Small actions that maintain and repair a relationship

1:04:19: What Jan would tell her younger self

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We’ve all been told to “feel our feelings,” but what does that actually mean, and how do you do it? Forrest talks with trauma therapist Simone Saunders about how to go from knowing your patterns to being able to do something about them when things get intense. 

They discuss what your nervous system does when it decides you're not safe, why the tools you've collected go offline in exactly the moments you need them, and how a sense of agency changes that equation. Simone walks through her three-step process for noticing a sensation, working out what it's asking for, and doing something different with it. They also talk about the functional freeze, what to do when you “don’t feel anything,” and how to relate to shame and grief.

Key Topics:

00:00: Intro: overthinking, cognitive bypassing, and intellectualizing

4:42: What it means to “be in the body”

9:46: Bottom-up approaches and trauma

18:33: How to recognize disconnection and functional freeze

28:38: Moving out of a dictatorship and into a partnership with your body

34:51: How to actually feel your feelings

46:29: The difference between emotions and feelings

52:14: Meeting your needs

57:40: The limit of self-understanding, frameworks, and tools 

1:00:07: Moving into experiments, titration, and when you feel too much or not enough

1:17:28: Recap

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Dr. Rick and Forrest explore how to become more resistant to manipulation, discussing terms like gaslighting, DARVO, and love bombing. They talk about why cynicism doesn’t make you immune to manipulation, and how excessive skepticism and trust can go together. They share the “handles” manipulators exploit, break down common forms of reality distortion, emotional manipulation, and situational engineering, and discuss what actually helps. 

Key Topics:

0:00: What is manipulation?

6:25: Are cynical people less manipulatable?

14:52: How can we become manipulation resistant?

25:51: How manipulation works

26:30: Tactic 1: Reality distortion

33:49: Tactic 2: Emotional manipulation

38:02: Tactic 3: Situational engineering

40:00: Key qualities to develop

45:17: Establishing protective systems and managing "the fuzz"

1:02:36: Recap

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Terms like boundaries, gaslighting, triggers, trauma, and attachment are everywhere now. Dr. Rick and Forrest answer a listener question about the consequences - good and bad - of clinical language escaping the therapy room. They then answer three more questions: an introverted listener wonders about the pressure to be social, a couple wants to know how to loosen their strict scorekeeping around household tasks, and a 27-year-old wonders whether becoming a therapist means wasting the degree they already have. 

Key Topics:

00:00: Introduction

1:24: Question 1: The rise, and problems, of therapy speak.

8:15: Boundaries as a tool for control

11:04: Epistemic injustice: who gets believed

14:48: The ups and downs of labels.

19:20: Question 2: Do I really need to expand my social circle if I'm happy being mostly alone?

28:23: Question 3: How do we balance household responsibilities without scorekeeping?

41:15: Question 4: I want to become a therapist, but I’m scared to change careers. What should I do?

51:30: Recap

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Dr. Rick and Forrest explore burnout: what it is, why it’s so common, and what people can do about it. They begin by framing burnout as largely a structural problem that individuals are forced to manage. They unpack the six major drivers of burnout, why some people are especially vulnerable, and how chronic stress affects the mind and body. They then turn to practical ways to recover more effectively, including psychologically detaching from work, finding more effective forms of relaxation, protecting your own self-concept, and reducing underlying vulnerabilities. Finally, they talk about how we can preserve meaning and agency when we truly can’t change our circumstances.

Key Topics:

00:00: Intro and burnout as a structural issue

7:20: Six major factors of stress and what to do about them

21:57: Mindfulness, relaxation, and recovery

34:11: Protecting your own self-concept and job crafting

41:46: Reduce vulnerabilities and taking care of yourself

1:04:45: Recap

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We all understand the emotional impact of grief, but its effects on the body are often overlooked. Forrest is joined by clinical psychologist and researcher Dr. Mary-Frances O’Connor to explore the physiology of grief. Dr. O’Connor explains how our brains and bodies organize themselves around the people we love, creating “maps” of their presence and relying on them for physical and emotional regulation. They discuss the health risks associated with bereavement, how to care for the healing body, ambiguous loss, the difference between grief and prolonged grief, and how we can gradually build a meaningful life around loss.

About our Guest: Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor is a Professor of Clinical Psychology and Psychiatry at the University of Arizona and Director of the Grief, Loss, and Social Stress Laboratory. She is the author of two books on grief: The Grieving Brain and The Grieving Body.

Key Topics:

00:00: Intro

4:42: The map that no longer exists

12:00: Co-regulation: the attachment figure as an external pacemaker

16:35: Physiological effects of grief

24:53: Taking care of yourself after a loss

36:46: Protest, despair, and meditative practices

45:45: Prolonged grief and getting stuck in restoration

57:31: Progressive Muscle Relaxation vs mindfulness

1:03:00: Re-engaging with the world

1:15:42: Recap

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