Amy Gallo: Getting Along
Amy Gallo is an expert in conflict, communication, and workplace dynamics. She combines the latest management research with practical advice to deliver evidence-based ideas on how to improve relationships and excel at work. In her role as a contributing editor at Harvard Business Review, Amy writes about interpersonal dynamics, communicating ideas, leading and influencing people, and building your career.

Amy is co-host of HBR's Women at Work podcast and author of both the HBR Guide to Dealing with Conflict and Getting Along: How to Work with Anyone (Even Difficult People)*.

In this conversation, Amy and I discuss one of the most common questions she receives from leaders: how do I handle a colleague who’s passive aggressive? We examine what causes this behavior, how to respond to it, and what to avoid that could worsen the relationship. Plus, we discuss the intention that leaders can bring in responding to passive-aggressive behavior that will help everybody move forward.
Key Points

 	Don’t use the “passive-aggressive behavior” to label someone. It rarely helps and often results in more defensiveness.
 	Focus on the other person’s underlying concern or question rather than how they are expressing it. Not everyone is able to discuss thoughts and feelings openly.
 	Consider doing hypothesis testing to determine what’s next. Language like, “Here’s the story I’m telling myself…” can help everyone move forward without assigning blame.
 	When making a direct request, stick to the facts. Review past behavior like you’re a referee vs. a fan.
 	Artificial harmony is a danger spot for teams and leaders. Setting norms can help to reduce passive-aggressive behavior.

Resources Mentioned

 	Getting Along: How to Work with Anyone (Even Difficult People)* by Amy Gallo

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

 	The Way to Have Conversations That Matter, with Celeste Headlee (episode 344)
 	Four Habits That Derail Listening, with Oscar Trimboli (episode 500)
 	How to Prepare for Conflict, with Amy Gallo (episode 530)
 	The Way to Get People Talking, with Andrew Warner (episode 560)

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595: How to Deal With Passive-Aggressive People, Amy Gallo

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Sohee Jun
Sohee Jun is a leadership coach for female executives, leaders, founders, and entrepreneurs. She is also a TEDx speaker, Forbes Coaches Council member, keynote speaker, leadership development expert, and author. With over twenty years in the corporate world, she has worked with Fortune 500 companies, including those in the entertainment, production, and media sectors such as Netflix, Fox, and Disney.

In 2020, Sohee released her first book, Mommytracked: How to Take Authentic Risks and Find Success on Your Terms, with the goal of helping ambitious women tap into their inner core throughout the different phases of their lives. She's now the author of a second book, The Inner Game: Secrets of High-Achieving Women for Navigating Work, Life, and Mindset*.

In a world where still too few women are represented in senior leadership roles, many of us want to do whatever we can to support high-achieving women. In this conversation, Sohee and I explore what her research and experience indicates that leaders can do to better support women in their careers.
Key Points

 	Leaders can support both women and men by framing the larger “why” or North Star. Providing context helps a point of focus to emerge.
 	Do it afraid. Provide support to work through fearful situations with success.
 	When supporting women in building confidence, help them recognize what they’ve already achieved.
 	Normalize the discussion about financial literacy. Opening the door to dialogue around salary negotiation helps equalize the salary gap.
 	One question can set the tone for better work and life integration. Leaders can proactively ask about boundaries.

Resources Mentioned

 	The Inner Game: Secrets of High-Achieving Women for Navigating Work, Life, and Mindset* by Sohee Jun

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

 	How to Prioritize, with Christy Wright (episode 545)
 	How to Protect Your Confidence, with Nate Zinsser (episode 573)
 	The Path Towards Your Next Promotion, with Adam Bryant (episode 653)

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677: How Leaders Can Better Support High-Achieving Women, with Sohee Jun

Michael McQueen: Mindstuck
Michael McQueen has spent the past two decades helping organizations and leaders win the battle for relevance. He specializes in helping clients navigate uncertainty and stay one step ahead of change.

Michael is a bestselling author of nine books and a familiar face on the international conference circuit, having shared the stage with the likes of Bill Gates, Dr. John C. Maxwell, and Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak. Having formerly been named Australia’s Keynote Speaker of the Year, he has been inducted into the Professional Speakers Hall of Fame. He is the author of Mindstuck: Mastering the Art of Changing Minds*.

There’s a lot of evidence that our minds would rather feel right than be right. How then, do you influence someone when they are really convinced of their position? In this conversation, Michael and I discuss the initial steps that help in changing people’s minds.
Key Points

 	Our tendency is to convince to the inquiring mind, but we’ll do better if we speak to the instinctive mind first.
 	Help others lessen loss and maintain dignity by preserving titles, language, and symbols in things that are new.
 	Instead of trying making an argument, ask a question that allows the other person to listen to themselves.
 	Ask questions that clarify points of resistance or misunderstanding.
 	Speak like you’re right, listen like you’re wrong.

Resources Mentioned

 	Mindstuck: Mastering the Art of Changing Minds* by Michael McQueen

Interview Notes
Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).
Related Episodes

 	The Way to Influence Executives, with Nancy Duarte (episode 450)
 	Four Habits That Derail Listening, with Oscar Trimboli (episode 500)
 	Three Practices for Thriving in Negotiations, with William Ury (episode 669)

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676: How to Change People’s Minds, with Michael McQueen

Lauren Wesley Wilson: What Do You Need?
Lauren Wesley Wilson is a leading thought leader on media relations, diversity and inclusion, and crisis communications. At 25, she became the founder and CEO of ColorComm Corporation. Prior to that, Lauren worked as a communications strategist at a prestigious crisis communications firm in Washington, D.C.

Lauren has been featured in The Washington Post, Forbes, and People, as well as on MSNBC and CNBC, and more. She has been recognized by PR Week’s 50 Most Powerful in PR, Ad Age’s Women to Watch, and New York Women in Communications. She is the author of What Do You Need?: How Women of Color Can Take Ownership of Their Careers to Accelerate Their Path to Success*.

Many of us wish to be good allies in the workplace, especially to those who are underrepresented. Yet, what we assume that means isn’t always what’s most wanted or needed. In this conversation, Lauren and I discuss what leaders and peers can do to be better allies.
Key Points

 	Instead of asking “How can I help?” consider, “What do you need?” That’s more likely to generate specific actions.
 	Women of color feel like they are putting in tons of work into relationships with the majority culture, but it often feels unreciprocated.
 	White folks think of allyship as speaking out against discrimination. Women of color say it’s way more critical to advocate for new opportunities.
 	Tie allyship to economic goals: conference attendance, nominations for recognition, inclusion on high-profile committees, and position/promotion considerations.
 	Make invitations to people of color to be at the table. This contributes more substantially than proclamations of support.
 	When you make a mistake, apologize, own it, and move on. Don’t tell a story to explain yourself.

Resources Mentioned

 	What Do You Need?: How Women of Color Can Take Ownership of Their Careers to Accelerate Their Path to Success* by Lauren Wesley Wilson

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

 	The Way Managers Can be Champions for Justice, with Minda Harts (episode 552)
 	End Imposter Syndrome in Your Organization, with Jodi-Ann Burey (episode 556)
 	How to Respond Better When Challenged, with Dolly Chugh (episode 615)

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675: How to Be a Better Ally, with Lauren Wesley Wilson

Ethan Mollick: Co-Intelligence
Ethan Mollick is a professor of management at Wharton, specializing in entrepreneurship and innovation. His research has been featured in various publications, including Forbes, The New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal.

Through his writing, speaking, and teaching, Ethan has become one of the most prominent and provocative explainers of AI, focusing on the practical aspects of how these new tools for thought can transform our world. He's the author of the popular One Useful Thing Substack and also the author of the book, Co-Intelligence: Living and Working with AI*.

Whether you’ve used it or not, you’ve heard that AI will transform how we work. Given how quickly the technology is changing, how do you start and, if you’ve started already, what’s the way to use it well? In this conversation, Ethan and I discuss the principles for using AI, even as the technology changes.
Key Points

 	GPT-4 is already passing the bar examination in the 90th percentile, acing AP exams, and even passing the Certified Sommelier Examination.
 	Always invite AI to the table. It’s may be helpful, frustrating, or useless — but understanding how it works will help you appreciate how it may help or threaten you.
 	Being the “human in the loop” will help you catch where AI isn’t accurate or helpful. Zeroing in on areas where you are already an expert will help you appreciate where AI is useful and where its limitation emerge.
 	Treat AI like a person, but tell it what kind of person it is. It’s helpful to think of AI like an alien person rather than a machine.
 	Assume this is the worst AI you will ever use. Embracing that reality will help you stay open to possibilities on how you use AI do your work better.

Resources Mentioned

 	Co-Intelligence: Living and Working with AI by Ethan Mollick

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

 	How to Build an Invincible Company, with Alex Osterwalder (episode 470)
 	Doing Better Than Zero Sum-Thinking, with Renée Mauborgne (episode 641)
 	How to Begin Leading Through Continuous Change, with David Rogers (episode 649)

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674: Principles for Using AI at Work, with Ethan Mollick

Mike Caulfield: Verified
Mike Caulfield is a research scientist at the University of Washington’s Center for an Informed Public, where he studies the spread of online rumors and misinformation. He has taught thousands of teachers and students how to verify claims and sources through his workshops. His SIFT methodology is taught by hundreds of research libraries across North America, and a shorter version of SIFT instruction, developed with Google, has been taught in public libraries across the world.

His work on Web Literacy for Student Fact-Checkers, won the Merlot Award for best open learning resource in the ICT category. His work has been covered by The New York Times, the Chronicle of Higher Education, NPR, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, and the MIT Technology Review. He is the author with Sam Wineburg of Verified: How to Think Straight, Get Duped Less, and Make Better Decisions about What to Believe Online*.

We’ve all seen something online that we thought was true, but turned out was a hoax. Annoying, but no big deal if it’s just an internet meme from a friend or family member. But what if what you find online isn’t at all what you thought and you make decisions or take action on it that affects your professional credibility? In this conversation, Mike and I discuss how to guard yourself from being duped.
Key Points

 	Rather than asking, “Is this true?” the more useful question is, “Do I know what I'm looking at here?”
 	The cheap signals many of us were trained to watch for (working links, attractive design, about pages, proper domains) are easy to replicate and no longer correlate to credibility.
 	Phrase questions to search engines in neutral ways for less biased results. Instead of “Are soda taxes a good idea?” ask “Do soda taxes work?”
 	While Wikipedia still has bias, it’s a far more credible source that many of us were taught — and a valuable source for a broad perspective of a topic or organization.
 	Intelligent people often read vertically, to their detriment. The best fact-checkers read laterally by using the rest of the web to read the web.
 	Watch for phrases like “sponsored content,” “brand partner,” “presented with,” “in partnership with,” “brought to you by,” “in association with,” or “hosted by.” These phrases signal advertisements.

Resources Mentioned

 	Verified: How to Think Straight, Get Duped Less, and Make Better Decisions about What to Believe Online* by Mike Caulfield and Sam Wineburg

Interview Notes
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Related Episodes

 	The Way to Make Better Decisions, with Annie Duke (episode 499)
 	Get People Reading What You’re Sending, with Todd Rogers (episode 666)
 	How to Enhance Your Credibility (audio course)

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595: How to Deal With Passive-Aggressive People, Amy Gallo

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