In episode 659, Rob Walling speaks with Courtland Allen and Channing Allen, the co-founders of Indie Hackers, to talk about their newfound independence since they are no longer owned by Stripe.



For the first half of the episode, they turn the tables and interview Rob about his new book, The SaaS Playbook.



They also share a bunch of theories about entrepreneurship and investing.



Topics we cover:




4:46 - About Rob’s new book - The SaaS Playbook



6:47 - Why did Rob hire a writing coach?



12:35 - Rob’s decision to launch a Kickstarter for his book



20:39- Rob’s thought process for what to include in his book



28:31 - Startup positioning



31:07 - Founder mindset



35:51 - Is it possible to find a business idea that both makes money and aligns with the things you enjoy doing?



42:38 - What motivates Rob these days?



48:18 - Courtland and Channing’s approach to going indie again with Indie Hackers



53:46 - Did Courtland and Channing have hesitations about going independent again?



57:44 - What does Rob want to see Courtland and Channing do next?



1:01:07 - Indie hackers investing in other indie hackers




Links from the Show:




Courtland Allen (@csallen) I Twitter



Channing Allen (@channingallen) I Twitter



Indie Hackers



The Personal MBA: Master the Art of Business



The War of Art



Lifting the Veil: The Data Behind Successful Product Launches - Ryan Delk - MicroConf 2014



MicroConf Upcoming Events



MicroConf Mastermind Matching



MicroConf Youtube Channel




If you have questions about starting or scaling a software business that you’d like for us to cover, please submit your question for an upcoming episode. We’d love to hear from you.



Subscribe & Review: iTunes | Spotify | Stitcher

Episode 659 | Indie Hackers' Newfound Independence + The SaaS Playbook with Courtland and Channing

The original podcast for bootstrapped and mostly bootstrapped startups, this show follow the stories of founders as they start, acquire, and grow SaaS companies. Hear when they fail, struggle, succeed, and take you with them through the tumultuous life of a SaaS founder. If you like Mixergy, This Week in Startups, or SaaStr, you’ll enjoy Startup for the Rest of Us.

Business

Investing

Careers

Management & Marketing

Business News

Shopping

Marketing

Management

Entrepreneurship

In episode 713, Rob Walling is joined by Arvid Kahl to share their experience from MicroConf US 2024 in Atlanta. They each discuss their top 5 moments, ranging from Dr. Sherry Walling’s talk on motivation to Ben Chestnut’s chat with Rob onstage. They agree that there’s nothing quite like being in the room with everyone and soaking in all the interactions outside of the official talks. 



If you missed the event and had some MicroConf FOMO, make sure to sign up for our email list to be notified when the tickets for our next event go on sale.! 



Click here to watch Rob’s Fireside Chat with Ben Chestnut!



Episode Sponsor:





We have been partnering with Lemon.io for several years, and they’ve proven to be a great choice when it comes to hiring for a highly skilled developer to work on your project.



Here are five reasons why you should consider working with Lemon.io.




The time from your request to getting a candidate is just 48 hours.



Developers have previously worked with tech giants such as Apple, Google, Netflix, Airbnb, Intel, and LEGO. 



They only provide senior devs, with an average of 7 years' experience.



Their talent pool covers more than 300 dev languages & frameworks.



Your hire comes with a zero-risk, replacement guarantee.




Customers of Lemon.io typically stick around for at least a year, proving they know how to gain your trust by delivering consistent results.



Quit wasting time searching for a solid developer at a great price. Get in touch with Lemon.io.



As a bonus for our podcast listeners, you’ll get a 15% discount on your first four weeks of working with a developer at lemon.io/startups. That’s lemon.io/startups



Topics we cover: 




1:05 – Key takeaways from MicroConf 2024



3:45 – Dr. Sherry Walling’s talk on motivation



7:02 – Stephen Steer’s sales scripts talk



9:25 – Live valuation of a business by Quiet Light Brokerage



12:23 – Micro excursions that allow founders to connect with one another



14:09 – The hallway track outside of the venue



15:53 – ”Nothing beats being in a room”



19:22 – Lack of hierarchy among founders



22:38 – Lianna Patch’s copywriting swipe file



23:50 – Ben Chestnut is just like one of us



29:50 – Don’t get stuck with MicroConf FOMO




Links from the Show: 




MicroConf Europe | Dubrovnik  - October 6 - 8, 2024



MicroConf US 2025 Waiting List



Arvid Kahl (@arvidkahl) | X



The Entrepreneur’s Guide to Keeping Your Sh*t Together by Sherry Walling, PhD and Rob Walling



Sherry Walling (@sherrywalling) | X

Episode 713 | Our Top 5 Takeaways from MicroConf US 2024 (with Arvid Kahl)

In episode 712, join Rob Walling for another solo adventure. He starts by revisiting past predictions and provides an update on how he successfully staved off full burnout. Rob then gives updates on this podcast, the progress of TinySeed and MicroConf, and teases two new books that he’s working on.



Episode Sponsor:





Is your outsourced development team dropping the ball?



Maybe you’ve worked with a team that just couldn't grasp your vision and needed constant oversight because they weren’t thinking strategically. Or maybe you ended up wasting hours micromanaging, often needing to jump on late-night calls across massive time zone differences to get alignment. And in the end, they delivered a sluggish app with a frustrating UI that didn’t come close to the solution you had envisioned. If any of that sounds familiar, you need to reach out to our sponsor - DevSquad.



DevSquad provides an entire development team packed with top talent from Latin America. 



Your elite squad will include between 2 to 6 Full Stack Developers, a technical product manager, plus experts in product strategy, UI/UX design, DevOps, and QA - all working together to make your SaaS Product a success.



You can ramp up an entire product team fast, in your timezone, and at rates 75% cheaper than a comparable US-based team. And with DevSquad, you pay month to month with no long-term contracts. 



Get the committed, responsive development team that your business deserves.  



Visit DevSquad.com/startups and get 10% off the first three months of your engagement.



Topics we cover: 




1:21 – Revisiting past predictions and reporting back on burnout



2:45 – Revisiting predictions for SaaS bootstrappers in 2024



5:29 – Twitter changes hands in 2024?



6:29 – Reducing travel to quell burnout on the horizon



11:45 – State of Startups For the Rest of Us 



14:40 – TinySeed invested in over 170+ companies



17:54 – First annual TinyFest



18:42 – TinySeed Tales Season 5



19:50 – The SaaS Playbook and my next two books




Links from the Show: 




MicroConf Connect



TinySeed



The SaaS Playbook by Rob Walling



Start Small Stay Small by Rob Walling



Episode 697 | 7 Predictions for SaaS Bootstrappers in 2024



Vertical SaaS vs Horizontal SaaS - Which is More Profitable?



State of Independent SaaS



MicroConf Mastermind Program



TinyFest Unwrapped: Inside Our First-Ever Founder Conference and Retreat in Cancun

Episode 712 | Revisiting Burnout + Updates on My Progress in 2024 (A Rob Solo Adventure)

In episode 711, join Rob Walling and Ruben Gamez as they answer listener questions. They chat about finding early customers without an audience, how to approach horizontal vs. vertical product spinoffs, and some considerations for No Code development. They also discuss the challenges of serving prosumer SaaS, the importance of understanding customer segments for pricing strategies, and the dual funnel approach for catering to different customer tiers.



Episode Sponsor:





We have been partnering with Lemon.io for several years, and they’ve proven to be a great choice when it comes to hiring for a highly skilled developer to work on your project.



Here are five reasons why you should consider working with Lemon.io.




The time from your request to getting a candidate is just 48 hours.



Developers have previously worked with tech giants such as Apple, Google, Netflix, Airbnb, Intel, and LEGO. 



They only provide senior devs, with an average of 7 years' experience.



Their talent pool covers more than 300 dev languages & frameworks.



Your hire comes with a zero-risk, replacement guarantee.




Customers of Lemon.io typically stick around for at least a year, proving they know how to gain your trust by delivering consistent results.



Quit wasting time searching for a solid developer at a great price. Get in touch with Lemon.io.



As a bonus for our podcast listeners, you’ll get a 15% discount on your first four weeks of working with a developer at lemon.io/startups. That’s lemon.io/startups



Topics we cover: 




2:00 – Strategies for finding your first users when you don’t have an audience



10:42 – Positioning yourself to compete well against others



12:25 – Jumping into SEO before having a product



18:42 – Exporting No Code projects



24:15 – Choosing between a vertical or horizontal product spinoff



33:55 – Building a B2P, “business to prosumer” product



42:53 – How to make lower pricing tiers work outside of B2B




Links from the Show: 




MicroConf Connect



Ruben Gamez (@@earthlingworks) | X



SignWell



TinySeed



Bubble



MicroConf YouTube channel



State of Independent SaaS



Episode 216 | How a Single Founder Launched a 7-Figure SaaS App (with Nate Grahek)



Sticky

Episode 711 | Finding Early Customers, Horizontal vs. Vertical, Prosumer SaaS, and More Listener Questions (with Ruben Gamez)

In episode 710, join Rob Walling for another solo adventure where he answers listener questions. He answers whether you need a burning passion to be successful in entrepreneurship, and how that relates to developing a product alongside a day job. Rob also discusses competing against VC-backed companies, learning to code in the age of AI, and how much risk lies in IP theft when building your SaaS.



Episode Sponsor:





Is your outsourced development team dropping the ball?



Maybe you’ve worked with a team that just couldn't grasp your vision and needed constant oversight because they weren’t thinking strategically. Or maybe you ended up wasting hours micromanaging, often needing to jump on late-night calls across massive time zone differences to get alignment. And in the end, they delivered a sluggish app with a frustrating UI that didn’t come close to the solution you had envisioned. If any of that sounds familiar, you need to reach out to our sponsor - DevSquad.



DevSquad provides an entire development team packed with top talent from Latin America. 



Your elite squad will include between 2 to 6 Full Stack Developers, a technical product manager, plus experts in product strategy, UI/UX design, DevOps, and QA - all working together to make your SaaS Product a success.



You can ramp up an entire product team fast, in your timezone, and at rates 75% cheaper than a comparable US-based team. And with DevSquad, you pay month to month with no long-term contracts. 



Get the committed, responsive development team that your business deserves.  



Visit DevSquad.com/startups and get 10% off the first three months of your engagement.



Topics we cover: 




3:00 – Reacting to needing a burning desire for entrepreneurship



5:20 – Maintaining a day job to enable space for entrepreneurial pursuits



8:52 – Balancing build speed vs. scalability with your tech stack



10:30 – The April Fools Episode



12:55 – Competing against VC-backed companies in a “hot” space



18:34 – Is learning to code dead?



27:33 – Risk in SaaS of IP theft




Links from the Show: 




MicroConf Connect



Episode 704 | Landing Pages, Buying a SaaS, the Right Tech Stack, and More Listener Questions



Episode 706.5 | Rethinking My Most Common Advice



The SaaS Playbook by Rob Walling



Start Small Stay Small by Rob Walling



TinySeed



Episode 688 | Growing Boot.dev From $6k to $110k in Monthly Revenue in 15 Months



Ask a Question on SFTROU

Episode 710 | Is Coding Dead?, The "Right" Tech Stack, Funded Competition, and More Listener Questions

In episode 709, join Rob Walling for a solo adventure as he shares his story of growing his personal wealth over the past few decades. Selling companies was the major driver of wealth, but he also explores the role of cryptocurrency, running profitable companies, and angel investing. Rob emphasizes the power of entrepreneurship in achieving financial freedom, while acknowledging there are ways to do so while keeping risk relatively low.



Episode Sponsor:





We have been partnering with Lemon.io for several years, and they’ve proven to be a great choice when it comes to hiring for a highly skilled developer to work on your project.



Here are five reasons why you should consider working with Lemon.io.




The time from your request to getting a candidate is just 48 hours.



Developers have previously worked with tech giants such as Apple, Google, Netflix, Airbnb, Intel, and LEGO. 



They only provide senior devs, with an average of 7 years' experience.



Their talent pool covers more than 300 dev languages & frameworks.



Your hire comes with a zero-risk, replacement guarantee.




Customers of Lemon.io typically stick around for at least a year, proving they know how to gain your trust by delivering consistent results.



Quit wasting time searching for a solid developer at a great price. Get in touch with Lemon.io.



As a bonus for our podcast listeners, you’ll get a 15% discount on your first four weeks of working with a developer at lemon.io/startups. That’s lemon.io/startups



Topics we cover: 




2:50 – A lesson on how to build wealth



4:31 – Entrepreneurship was our biggest tool



6:37 – Building, acquiring, then selling companies



10:45 – Building slowly while staying risk-averse



13:27 – Investing in riskier assets like cryptocurrency



19:39 – Running profitable companies



20:56 – Angel investing, and WP Engine



23:44 – Traditional, salaried employment



24:53 – Typical investments: stocks, bonds, REITs



27:36 – Real estate investing




Links from the Show: 




MicroConf Connect



Christopher Gimmer (@cgimmer) | X



Christopher’s tweet



Sherry Walling (@sherrywalling) | X



The Stair Step Method of Bootstrapping



Start Small Stay Small by Rob Walling



This Took 11 Years to Be An "Overnight Success" - SaaS Exit Strategy



Zen Founder



The SaaS Playbook by Rob Walling



WP Engine



TinySeed



Barbell Strategy Explained for Stock and Bond Investors




If you have questions about starting or scaling a software business that you’d like for us to cover, please submit your question for an upcoming episode.

Episode 659 | Indie Hackers' Newfound Independence + The SaaS Playbook with Courtland and Channing

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