He has been a lawyer, an instructor at the F.B.I. Academy, the owner of a frozen-yogurt chain, and a winner of the TV show Survivor. Today, Kwon works at Google, where he helped build tools to track the spread of COVID-19. But things haven’t always come easily for him. Steve Levitt talks to Kwon about his debilitating childhood anxieties, his compulsion to choose the hardest path in life, and how Kwon used his obsession with game theory to stage a come-from-behind victory on Survivor.

13. Yul Kwon: “Don't Try to Change Yourself All at Once.”

Freakonomics co-author Steve Levitt tracks down other high achievers for surprising, revealing conversations about their lives and obsessions. Join Levitt as he goes through the most interesting midlife crisis you’ve ever heard — and learn how a renegade sheriff is transforming Chicago's jail, how a biologist is finding the secrets of evolution in the Arctic tundra, and how a trivia champion memorized 160,000 flashcards.

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Society & Culture

Personal Journals

History

Philosophy

Places & Travel

Ellen Langer is a psychologist at Harvard who studies the mind-body connection. She’s published some of the most remarkable scientific findings Steve has ever encountered. Can we really improve our physical health by changing our mind?  SOURCE:Ellen Langer, professor of psychology at Harvard University. RESOURCES:Brave New Words: How AI Will Revolutionize Education (and Why That's a Good Thing), by Sal Khan (2024)."F.D.A.’s Review of MDMA Cites Health Risks and Study Flaws," by Andrew Jacobs and Christina Jewett (The New York Times, 2024).The Mindful Body: Thinking Our Way to Chronic Health, by Ellen Langer (2023)."Physical Healing as a Function of Perceived Time," by Peter Aungle and Ellen Langer (Nature: Scientific Reports, 2023)."Aging as a Mindset: A Study Protocol to Rejuvenate Older Adults With a Counterclockwise Psychological Intervention," by Francesco Pagnini, Cesare Cavalera, Ellen Langer, et al. (BMJ Open, 2019).Counterclockwise: Mindful Health and the Power of Possibility, by Ellen Langer (2009)."Mind-Set Matters: Exercise and the Placebo Effect," by Alia Crum and Ellen Langer (2007)."The Effects of Choice and Enhanced Personal Responsibility for the Aged: A Field Experiment in an Institutional Setting," by Ellen Langer and Judith Rodin (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 1976). EXTRAS:"The Future of Therapy Is Psychedelic," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023)."Extra: An Update on the Khan World School," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023)."Is This the Future of High School?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022)."What It Takes to Know Everything," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022)."Sal Khan: 'If It Works for 15 Cousins, It Could Work for a Billion People,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021)."Greg Norman & Mark Broadie: Why Golf Beats an Orgasm and Why Data Beats Everything," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021)."Caverly Morgan: 'I Am Not This Voice. I Am Not This Narrative,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2020)."Does 'As If' Thinking Really Work?" by No Stupid Questions (2020)."Havana Wild Weekend," S28.E7 of The Simpsons (2016). 

133. Pay Attention! (Your Body Will Thank You)

Author and YouTuber John Green thought his breakout bestseller wouldn’t be a commercial success, wrote 40,000 words for one sentence, and brought Steve to tears.  SOURCE:John Green, best-selling author and YouTube creator. RESOURCES:"The Deadliest Infectious Disease Isn’t a Science Problem. It’s a Money Problem," by John Green (The Washington Post, 2024).“Tuition Inflation Isn’t as Bad as You Think,” by Felix Salmon (Axios, 2022).“Fast Facts: Expenditures,” by the National Center for Education Statistics (2022).“Trends in College Pricing and Student Aid 2021,” by the College Board (2021).“#37 John,” by Heavyweight (2021).The Anthropocene Reviewed: Essays on a Human-Centered Planet, by John Green (2021).“Scratch ‘n’ Sniff Stickers and the Indianapolis 500,” by The Anthropocene Reviewed Podcast (2019).“How Joan of Arc Conquered Mark Twain,” by Ted Gioia (America: The Jesuit Review, 2018).Turtles All the Way Down, by John Green (2017).The Fault in Our Stars, film (2014).The Fault in Our Stars, by John Green (2012).Looking for Alaska, by John Green (2005).All the King’s Men, by Robert Penn Warren and Noel Polk (1946).Harvey, film (1950).vlogbrothers, YouTube channel by John and Hank Green.Crash Course, YouTube channel by John and Hank Green. EXTRAS:“Peter Singer Isn’t a Saint, But He’s Better Than Steve Levitt,” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).“Freakonomics Radio Goes Back To School,” series by Freakonomics Radio (2022).

UPDATE: John Green’s Reluctant Rocket Ship Ride

Suleika Jaouad was diagnosed with cancer at 22. She made her illness the subject of a New York Times column and a memoir, Between Two Kingdoms. She and Steve talk about what it means to live with a potentially fatal illness, how to talk to people who've gone through a tragedy, and ways to encourage medical donations.  SOURCE:Suleika Jaouad, author. RESOURCES:"The Art of Survival," by Jennifer Senior (The Atlantic, 2024).American Symphony, film by Matthew Heineman (2023).Between Two Kingdoms: A Memoir of a Life Interrupted, by Suleika Jaouad (2021)."Max Ritvo, Poet Who Chronicled His Cancer Fight, Dies at 25," by John Schwartz (The New York Times, 2016).“Life, Interrupted,” column by Suleika Jaouad (The New York Times, 2012-2015).The Fault in Our Stars, by John Green (2012).Bright-sided: How Positive Thinking Is Undermining America, by Barbara Ehrenreich (2009).The Isolation Journals, newsletter by Suleika Jaouad. EXTRAS:"John Green’s Reluctant Rocket Ship Ride," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022)."Does Death Have to Be a Death Sentence?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).

132. Suleika Jaouad’s Survival Mechanisms

Caroline Paul is a thrill-seeker and writer who is on a quest to encourage women to get outside and embrace adventure as they age. She and Steve talk about fighting fires, walking on airplane wings, and finding awe in birdwatching.  SOURCE:Caroline Paul, author and former firefighter. RESOURCES:Tough Broad: From Boogie Boarding to Wing Walking ― How Outdoor Adventure Improves Our Lives as We Age, by Caroline Paul (2024)."FAA Halts Sequim Wing-Walking Flights, Revokes Owner’s Pilot License," by Dominic Gates (The Seattle Times, 2024)."How a Bit of Awe Can Improve Your Health," by Hope Reese (The New York Times, 2023).The Gutsy Girl: Escapades for Your Life of Epic Adventure, by Caroline Paul (2016)."Why Do We Teach Girls That It’s Cute to Be Scared?" by Caroline Paul (The New York Times, 2016)."What if Age Is Nothing but a Mind-Set?" by Bruce Grierson (The New York Times Magazine, 2014).Lost Cat: A True Story of Love, Desperation, and GPS Technology, by Caroline Paul (2013)."The Cognitive Benefits of Interacting With Nature," by Marc G. Berman, John Jonides, and Stephen Kaplan (Psychological Science, 2008)."Longevity Increased by Positive Self-Perceptions of Aging," by Becca R. Levy, Martin D. Slade, Suzanne R. Kunkel, and Stanislav V. Kasl (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 2002).Fighting Fire, by Caroline Paul (1998). EXTRAS:"Is Fear Running Your Life?" by No Stupid Questions (2024)."Arnold Schwarzenegger Has Some Advice for You," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024)."Should You Spend More Time in Nature?" by No Stupid Questions (2023)."Steven Pinker: 'I Manage My Controversy Portfolio Carefully,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2020).

131. Getting Old, Adventurously

Steve shows a different side of himself in very personal interviews with his two oldest daughters. Amanda talks about growing up with social anxiety and her decision not to go to college, while Lily speaks candidly about her battle with anorexia and the conversation she had with Steve that led her to seek treatment.   SOURCES:Lily Levitt, daughter of Steve Levitt.Amanda Levitt, daughter of Steve Levitt. RESOURCES:Can I Ask You a Question? by Amanda Levitt (2020)."Does “Early Education” Come Way Too Late?" Freakonomics Radio (2018).  EXTRAS:NEDA Crisis Support.

13. Yul Kwon: “Don't Try to Change Yourself All at Once.”

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