Three years ago, Razib recorded two podcasts with two immigration experts on different sides of the issue, Alex Nowrestah and Jason Richwhine. While Nowrasteh, who works for the libertarian Cato Institute as Vice President for Economic and Social Policy Studies, supports higher levels of legal immigration, Richwine, a Resident Scholar at the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), favors lower levels of inflows into the US. The initial pair of podcasts was recorded in the midst of the massive increase in immigration that occurred after the loosening of the pandemic-era controls, resulting in the highest proportion of the foreign-born since the turn of the 20th century. Though the Biden administration tightened controls in its last year, the swell of illegal immigration resulted in a backlash that fueled the re-election of Donald Trump to the presidency and a turn in policy toward restriction. Recently, Razib recorded two conversations with Nowrestah and Richwine, revisiting the topic in 2025, and after three years of policy shifts.

Today, Razib talks to Nowrasteh about the record of the Biden administration, the pivot occurring in the first year of the Trump administration, and where he sees the Republicans going in the future. Nowrasteh addresses the reality that the Democratic administration's lack of interest in controlling illegal flows resulted in anger and frustration at migration in general, and emphasizes the importance of borders and rules in allowing for legal immigration. Razib and Nowrasteh also discuss the controversy over H1-Bs, the role that skilled immigration plays in buttressing American power, and the conflicts on the Right regarding how immigration policy relates to geopolitics. They also explore the relationship between immigration and population, and how both connect to urban policy and economic growth.