This past fall when myself and Hillary Schuster, our experience director were in London for the Beavertown Extravaganza and Uppers & Downers, we were thrilled to get outside the city for a couple of days to visit one of my favorite cider makers in the world, Tom Oliver.

He was pouring at the Extravaganza of course, right next to Other Half, which made me laugh a bit as I entered, seeing dozens of people, rightly waiting in line for Other Half’s beers, and a nearly empty line for Oliver’s ciders, which I would put up against any wild ale, lambic, or Geueze in the world in terms of its fermentation complexity, natural, rustic condition, and agricultural qualities. It’s really one of the most fantastic fermented beverages you can buy. And at the fest, you could just walk right up to his booth and get a pour because we still have a strange relationship with cider. In the U.S. we have a strange tension between these artisanal orchard-based producers and “craft” cider makers selling quick fermentations in a six pack of cans, some even produce by breweries as al alternative offering.

That also exists int he Uk, but the biggest tension there is among the sort of country cider, known as scrumpy, which is maybe more akin to moonshine, and the mass market ciders, called white ciders, which people drink for it’s functional effects, not so much its flavors. Cider makers like Tom Oliver have a hard time cutting through. But it’s improving.

Tom’s ciders were re-branded beautifully this year, which is getting some notice. And as more and more beer drinkers follow their palates into the more complex side of fermentation, they’re finding something resonate in mixed fermentation beers, natural wines, and maybe, finally, orchardists ciders.

We went out to Tom’s multi-generational family farm in Herefordshire near the Welsh border and stayed for a couple days to get a lay of the land. We ate meat pies and drank some beautiful things, and eventually myself and our U.k editor Matthew Curtis sat down int he dining room of Tom’s cottage to talk about the future.