On this episode of the Everyday Injustice Podcast, host David Greenwald speaks with Josh Schwartz and Leon Parker of the Wren Collective, a policy and communications organization working to reform the criminal legal system and strengthen public defense nationwide. The conversation centers on a new statewide study revealing that California dramatically underfunds its public defense system—despite being one of only two states in the country that provides no statewide standards or funding for trial-level defense. The result, Schwartz explains, is a staggering imbalance: California spends 77 percent more on prosecution than on public defense, leaving roughly 1,000 fewer public defenders and nearly 4,000 fewer support staff statewide.

Schwartz and Parker describe the human cost of this imbalance—attorneys overloaded with hundreds of felony cases, clients left without investigators or social workers, and communities paying far more to incarcerate people than to prevent crime. “Counties spend six times as much on incarceration as they do on public defense,” Schwartz notes, arguing that investing in defense and early intervention not only improves outcomes but ultimately saves money. Parker adds that these disparities reflect misplaced priorities, with local governments equating public safety solely with policing and prosecution instead of addressing addiction, trauma, and the root causes of harm.

The discussion also delves into California’s controversial “flat fee” contract system—where private attorneys are paid a fixed amount regardless of how many cases they handle. The Wren Collective’s recent report calls for banning the practice, warning that it incentivizes minimal representation and leads to wrongful convictions. Both guests emphasize that while many contract lawyers are dedicated, the system itself is “set up for mediocrity,” discouraging thorough investigation and favoring plea deals over justice. Assembly Bill 690, now before the Legislature, would outlaw these contracts and move California toward a more equitable public defense model.

Ultimately, Schwartz and Parker argue that reform requires not only funding but a fundamental shift in narrative. “California likes to see itself as a model of progress,” Parker says, “but when it comes to how we treat those with the least, we’re failing.” By investing in public defense and rejecting outdated, punitive systems, they contend, California could finally live up to its ideals—and create a model of justice that other states might follow.