The Restoration occurred in a fascinating and complex religious and historical moment in American history, and knowing more about that context can help us more deeply appreciate the blessings and beauty of the Restored Gospel. One person at the forefront of expanding our knowledge of early American religious history is David Holland, a professor at Harvard Divinity School and also the son of Elder Jeffrey R. Holland.  In today’s episode Zach Davis and Terryl Givens visited David in his Cambridge office to discuss a range of topics, including how to discern the hand of God in history, whether there’s something about Calvinist theology worth celebrating, and how the experience of being a parent might be the best insight of all into the nature of God.  David Holland is a Professor of New England Church History at Harvard Divinity School and a renowned scholar of American religious history. He earned a BA in history from BYU and a PhD from Stanford University. He is the author of Moroni: A Brief Theological Introduction, published by the Maxwell Institute and Sacred Borders: Continuing Revelation and Canonical Restraint in Early America, published by Oxford University Press in 2011. 



132. History and Faith — A Conversation with David Holland

Faith Matters offers an expansive view of the Restored Gospel, thoughtful exploration of big and sometimes thorny questions, and a platform that encourages deeper engagement with our faith and our world. We focus on the Latter-day Saint (Mormon) tradition, but believe we have much to learn from other traditions and fully embrace those of other beliefs.

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This week, we’re bringing you an interview with Kurt Francom, author of a new book titled, Is God Disappointed in Me? Removing Shame from a Gospel of Grace. It seems to us that culturally, Latter-day Saints don’t usually imagine an angry vengeful God but we may very well imagine a god who is perpetually disappointed with us when we inevitably fail again to live up to our highest ideals. Kurt’s book unpacks what hurts about the idea of a disappointed God and why this belief can be a real stumbling block to our growth. He explores the ways sin is very often a response to woundedness and how understanding these core vulnerabilities can help us to heal from shame instead of hiding or numbing.  We've linked to a sweet video Kurt posted of his daughter learning to walk; though she is fumbling and struggling to learn, the video reminds us that as parents, we're not disappointed by this process of growth. Instead, like Kurt's voice in this little video, he was bursting with pride at her growth, joy when she got back up, and excitement that he got to be with her in the journey of learning to walk. Is this what we imagine God -a loving heavenly father and mother feels, when we make mistakes? 

We think these ideas are so transformative. You can find Kurt’s book on Amazon or Benchmark Books. We also invite you to check out Kurt’s “Learning to walk” video with his daughter, which we’ll link to in the show notes. We hope you enjoy this episode. Is God Disappointed In Me? (on Amazon): https://a.co/d/2soZzs5 Learning to walk video: https://youtu.be/nC9CIIXRJS0

212. Is God Disappointed in Me? — A Conversation with Kurt Francom

We’re excited to bring you an episode with a genuine ‘lift-where-you-stand story’ of a family in the UK. Sam and Jen Norton have served young people in the church for more than twenty years and most recently as FSY Session Directors in London. FSY stands for “For the Strength of Youth”, and refers to the week-long summer events held for youth around the world. 
 As FSY leaders, Jen and Sam began facing difficult questions about how to include and support youth with a range of perspectives and lifestyles. They wanted to affirm the wisdom of the standards set by the Church for youth; they also noticed that many youth were driven away  the fear of exclusion they would experience if they fell short. As a result, many youth would drop out of Church activity before giving a chance to learn what it’s really about. 
 Through prayer, open conversations, deep listening, and creativity, Jen and Sam were taken on a truly transformative journey; they found their way to loving the younger generation more than they thought possible, and learning how to really champion them and their unique spiritual gifts. In short, they believe in believing in the next generation and giving them a more gentle on-ramp to following Jesus and reminds them that perhaps the most important word in the sacrament prayer and baptismal covenant is ‘willing’. Their story will be valuable to anyone working with youth, or who is interested in blending top-down and bottom-up approaches to Church callings. 
If you want more of what you hear in this conversation, Sam wrote a book about it called Come as You Are: Creating Space for the Rising Generation to come to Jesus Christ. The book aims to be an accessible guide to parents, leaders and teachers and invites us all to rethink about how we support our young people’s faith discovery.

211. Come As You Are — A Conversation with Jen and Sam Norton

It’s General Conference weekend! Time to dig up the BINGO cards and park yourself in front of the TV with some cinnamon rolls and a Diet Coke or two, to soak in some inspiration and maybe even encounter some discomfort. We thought we’d release a re-edited episode with Patrick Mason that feels really timely. In this conversation with Patrick, we talked about creating what Brian McLaren has called a “four-stage community.”. The “stages” we’re referencing here come from Brian’s book Faith After Doubt, and refer to different stages in which people might find themselves in their journeys of faith. McLaren defines these stages as  simplicity, where faith is straightforward; complexity, where faith becomes somewhat more complicated; perplexity, the stage where questions become more important than answers and previous faith paradigms often undergo massive shifts; and finally, harmony, where the gifts of each stage are finally realized and integrated.

It seems to us that the diverse reactions and feelings engendered by General Conference are often the result of being members of a community in which all four of these stages are manifest. Messages that seem to be tailored to members at a particular stage of faith may not resonate with listeners at a different stage. This can feel like misalignment, and it can sometimes feel jarring.

In this conversation, Patrick points to a couple of practices that have helped us turn that dissonance we sometimes feel into a gift: for one, being intentional about deeply listening to those we might be inclined to disagree with, and orienting ourselves toward generosity, asking what virtues and values might they be speaking from. Patrick also pointed out there’s a real potential for growth when we choose to stay in relationship with people we disagree with. As Eugene England points out in his essay “The Church is As True as the Gospel,” in many ways, that struggle is the point.

Patrick is the Leonard Arrington Chair of Mormon History and Culture at Utah State University and the author of several books including Restoration: God’s Call to the 21st Century World. He brought the wisdom, insight, and optimism that he always seems to meld so beautifully. We really hope that you can take what feels valuable in this episode, and use it as we come together in solidarity as a community this weekend, with all our varied life experiences and perspectives to be inspired by and stretched by General Conference.

210. The Gift of Dissonance — A Conversation with Patrick Mason

As Latter-day Saints, we often say that we focus more on Jesus’ resurrection than on His death, and we consider the atonement in Gethsemane as the most sacred event in Jesus’ life. In this episode, we consider a question we don’t think about too often, stemming from this: why have we not cultivated more robust ways to celebrate Holy Week, and all the events leading up to Easter Sunday? Especially when we compare it to all that we do leading up to Christmas?  We sat down to talk with Eric Huntsman, a professor of ancient scripture at BYU and author of God So Loved the World: The Final Days of the Savior's Life. Eric has done a lot of work as a scholar to understand the events of Holy Week leading up to Jesus’ death on the cross on Friday, his resurrected visitations on Sunday, and where, as Latter-day Saints, we might place the points of emphasis differently than other Christian denominations. His family has cultivated Easter traditions, complete with meals, activities, and scripture readings, to help them really feel and anticipate these events, and invite a deeper witness of the Savior. By getting more creative with our Holy Week traditions, Eric says we can connect ourselves more deeply with the rest of Christianity while immersing ourselves more fully in a scriptural journey.

We hope this episode inspires you to get more out Easter Weekend, which is coming up in just a few days. And for more on this topic, you can check out Eric’s book God So Loved the World at Deseret Book, Barnes & Noble, or Amazon. 


209. What's So Good About Good Friday? — A Conversation with Eric Huntsman

This week we sat down with Kathy Kipp Clayton and Bill Turnbull to talk about the fascinating chapters they contributed to a new book entitled No Division among You: Creating Unity in a Diverse Church. Bill, and his wife Susan, are two of Faith Matters’ co-founders. Kathy and her husband Whitney have served around the world on Church assignments for the past two decades. Whitney served in the presidency of the Seventy until his release in 2020. They now help supervise and often travel the world with the Tabernacle Choir. Kathy is an author and an education innovator. In their essays, Kathy and Bill share how the everyday, sometimes uncomfortable situations we find ourselves in at Church can be a profound opportunity to get curious about what others are seeing, especially  when we don’t see eye to eye with them. They talk through their own experiences learning to love people they didn’t expect to love, and finding ways to open themselves to questions rather than fear — to look at differences or aberrations from the norm as ways to connect. 

At a time when in-person gatherings, clubs, and associations are in decline across society, these experiences we have with others at Church might be increasingly rare. We really hope you enjoy this conversation.

132. History and Faith — A Conversation with David Holland

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