It's our September bonus episode! And we're trying out a new format: Virginia's Office Hours, where a Burnt Toast subscriber comes on the pod to chat with Virginia about fatphobia, diet culture, parenting and health. Our first guest is Serena, who is trying to navigate family gatherings while in eating disorder recovery—but her relatives aren't just diet-y, they are diet culture creators. 

If you are already a paid subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon.

If you are not a paid subscriber, you'll only get the first chunk. To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to go paid. It's just $5 a month or $50 for the year—and you get the first week free!

This episode does contain some discussion of eating disorders, eating disorder recovery, and family medical crisis. If any of that wouldn't be good for you to listen to, please take care of yourself and give this one a miss.

Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.

BUTTER & OTHER LINKS

Want to come on Virginia's Office Hours? Please use this form.

Virginia has previously discussed her daughter's medically necessary (but awful!) fat-free diet in this episode. 

Serena recommends this poem by spoken word poet Andrea Gibson. 

CREDITS
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter.

Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.

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Today we’re trying out a new format for the podcast called Virginia's Office Hours! This is a chance for a Burnt Toast subscriber to come chat with me about any question they're mulling over related to diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, health, etc.

The way I think of both the Ask Virginia column and what we do on the podcast with listener questions is not so much “here is an expert sharing their wisdom.” I think that’s the model we're all trained to expect with advice content—in large part thanks to diet culture. But I think of this as much more smart people having thoughtful conversations…the same way I do, and I bet you do. over wine or coffee with friends or over my group text chats with my friends. And, a big problem with trying to get advice about any these topics is that people boil it down to an Instagram post or a little nugget of wisdom and that just isn't applicable to all of our lives. So, a much deeper, richer and more nuanced conversation is what I'm aiming for with these Office Hour episodes. I see it as a chance to have the kind of conversation we often have on Friday Threads. But here we are, conversing more directly, Zoom face to Zoom face.

Today's Office Hours guest has asked me to change her name to protect privacy, so we are calling her “Serena.” We’ll be talking about how she can navigate encounters with extended family members who aren't just diet-y and on diets, they are diet culture creators. It's your uncle who's really obsessed with Paleo, but if your uncle invented Paleo. (Her uncle did not invent Paleo, just to be clear.)

This episode does contain some discussion of eating disorders, eating disorder recovery, and family medical crisis. If any of that wouldn't be good for you to listen to, please take care of yourself and give this one a miss. Everyone else, it's an awesome conversation and I can't wait to hear what you think of this new format!

Want to submit a question or volunteer to be an office hours guest? Please use this form.

Note: I am a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. I am not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions I give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.

Virginia

Hi Serena! This is the inaugural Virginia’s Office Hours episode, so we’re figuring out the format together and I appreciate you being game for the experiment. I would like to start by having you read us the question you sent. 

Serena

Okay, great. So the question is:

How do I maintain a relationship with or move on from my extended family members whose livelihood is rooted in wellness culture, selling, “food as medicine,” and weight loss as a cure for everything from heart disease to type two diabetes to rheumatoid arthritis and lupus? During my years following their rigid vegan / whole food, plant-based, no salt, oil, sugar, etc diet, I developed severe anorexia from which I am just now extricating myself with lots of professional help and support of anti-diet journalism and podcasts like yours and Food Psych, for example.

It feels awkward to be around my family now that I’m trying to follow Intuitive Eating instead of the whole food, plant-based diet rules. They are famous, revered, and well-loved in their circles. I’m not necessarily here to bash them, though I now see their messaging as privileged, fatphobic, not at all aligned with my social justice values and the opposite of intuitive/anti-diet.

Virginia

This question jumped out at me because you’re in a very specific situation with who these folks are and the work that they do, but I think there’s a lot that’s relatable here. Like even if someone’s cousin or grandfather isn’t like the father of Keto—which is not who her family member is, we’re not disclosing their identity. But you know, even if you’re not related to the founder of the Paleo diet, you might have a relative who’s a doctor or a dietitian or in health in a diet-y way in some other arena. And the authority that we give these folks in their professional lives can often show up in the personal interactions as well. So I just thought, Oh, I bet a lot of people can relate to what you must be feeling when you go to Thanksgiving dinner.

Why don’t we have you tell us a little more of your own story because I think that’s going to be really important to how we talk about how you’re navigating this. So, tell us a little more about when your eating disorder started. And what were some of the key ways you saw your relatives’ work in forming your disorder?

Serena

So my mom was kind of an early vegetarian in the 1970s, when she was pregnant with my brother, after me. And then my dad had a GI cancer in the mid-70s. Part of his treatment was a major operation of his whole GI tract that basically they weren’t sure he was gonna survive or recover from. So my family went into full on survival mode and a lot of that was figuring out how best to eat. Now I know it’s orthorexia, and yet it came out of this real fear of my dad may not make it if we don’t eat right. 

My extended family, about whom this question is focused, started their vegan path in the mid-80s. So that was around when my immediate family also adopted this pretty strict way of eating. My first round of anorexia was probably my last year of high school and definitely grew out of a lot of that restriction, no animal products and all of that. But I pretty much recovered and found a somewhat of a middle ground, until it came roaring back in the last decade of midlife and changes with my children. I think it’s pretty common, coming around again during the changes of midlife.

Part of what did it was being diagnosed with Lyme disease and a fairly well-meaning health care provider suggesting that part of my recovery could be giving up other food groups. Kind of classic wellness culture around gluten and other things. So that got me back into that mode of “food as medicine” or rather, restricting food as the only path to wellness. So by the time 2015 rolled around, I was definitely deep in it and it was only just reinforced by not my immediate family necessarily, but my extended family.

Virginia

So your whole relationship with food is rooted in this big trauma, right? This experience with your dad. That sounds so terrifying. And how that kind of informed the way your family was navigating food when you were a kid, is that right?

Serena

Yeah, I was five when he was sick. 

Virginia

That’s a lot. And it was all under the guise of “this is what we need to do to make him better.” And I’m guessing less attention was paid to, “what is the toll this is taking on all of us?”

Serena

Oh, for sure. No. It was all about how do we keep him alive and we’ll do anything. 

Virginia

Which, of course you would. But also you’re five and you’re having to eat in this really difficult way. Were you aware, as a kid, that your family ate differently from other families? 

Serena

Oh, yes. And it was always kind of a “we’re better, we’re superior, we’re righteous, we’re healthy,” you know? “We’re eating clean.” So there was always kind of a comfort there to me. Not a shame or like, ooh, we’re different. And it wasn’t the kind of thing where I couldn’t eat birthday cake at a friend’s party or something. But at home, it was all very clean because of dad’s survival. And he is still alive!

Virginia

Which we’re delighted about!

Serena

For sure, yeah. Whether it was the food or something else.

Virginia

I’m just thinking about how that set you up to interact with food in a really specific way from the get go.

I’ve talked in the newsletter about my daughter’s medical experiences. We spent a lot of time with her on a really strict fat-free diet. It was necessary to save her life at that point in time, and because I was the adult in the situation, I was able to look at it and say: It’s a no brainer to do this to save her life right now. And, what are the broader implications of this? How is this going to impact her longterm relationship with food? What is it doing to us?

I think that part of the content of the conversation so often gets missed when we’re thinking about food as medicine. It may be that there’s a food restriction that’s necessary for a health condition, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t bring along all this other stuff.  We’re given this message of “well, if it’s what you have to do, then you have to just be all in on it,” and you don’t get to have feelings about it being a hard way to live.

What was your turning point, if there was one? I understand you recovered from the first round that happened when you were a teenager and then this later around related to the Lyme disease?

Serena

There probably wouldn’t have been one because I really thought I had it nailed. I had gotten all the bad foods out of my diet, and I was eating as healthy as anyone could and you know, all that righteousness that comes with the territory. But during the pandemic, I was out running, and a friend of mine who also works in healthcare saw me, and emailed shortly after and said she was concerned because I looked like I was emaciated and not doing well, which was a shock to me. It hadn’t occurred to me that all of my healthy stuff was leading actually down a really dangerous path.

So, it was having a fellow healthcare person say that she was concerned that really got me to go for an assessment, plus the concern of my husband and other people in my world. I was referred for residential treatment, but I was in denial that that was really necessary. But I did get on board with a really amazing all virtual recovery team. And I’ve been doing that for most of the pandemic, all by telehealth.

I continue to just see how how sick I was where I had no clue. I really thought I was doing everything perfectly.

Virginia

Yeah, the eating disorder can be so loud and very good at talking you into certain thought patterns. So in terms of both your earlier struggles and what you’ve been working through recently, are your extended family members, the ones who are so entrenched in this world, are they aware of what you’ve been going through?

Serena

I came out to most of my family and extended family pretty soon after I was engaged in recovery. Partly because I just needed them to know that I was kind of hopping off the train or exiting the cult or changing the narrative or whatever metaphor you want to use. I really felt kind of naughty and it was impossible to think of another way of living at first. But  I did call them and I think I was looking for some sort of acknowledgement of, “Oh, yeah, I could see how all this restriction could have led down that path and I’m really sorry that happened for you.”

But I mean, there’s just such a… I don’t know if it’s blindness? Or just the assumption that it’s still really the best way to live and be and it’s your own personal failing if you take it to this unhealthy place. Or it was still very much my fault that it happened that way. And no one has really changed their beliefs.

Even just this couple of weeks ago, we were out there visiting, and there was still a lot of talk about clean eating and weighing yourself. And, “we don’t eat these bad animal products” and stuff. So coming out was important for me, but it also hasn’t really changed much. I still feel really self conscious doing things differently. 

Virginia 

That is frustrating. Of course, we can never control other people’s reactions, but still such a letdown that they couldn’t say, “Wow, we’re really sorry this happened and we’re willing to look at the broader implications of this.”

Serena

Well, I think it would throw into question everything that is held as truth. It is a lot easier to see things in a very black and white, binary way. I think I kind of throw a wrench in their whole understanding of the world, that whole dogma, because it didn’t work for me or it worked so well that it just went bad.

Virginia

Right, they don’t know what to do with you. You’re not the story they want to tell. But you can’t be the only person who has shared this with them, given what we know about the way these kinds of eating programs contribute to disordered eating and eating disorders. It’s fascinating to me, how often I see big diet brands, give this total stonewall response that’s like, “Well, that’s not what we’re doing. We don’t do that. We don’t want people to get eating disorders, we’re doing something else.” Even though the evidence clearly shows that what they’re doing is contributing to eating disorders.

Serena

Yeah. And the messaging around it all, as you’ve touched on before, is very slippery. It’s a lifestyle. It’s not a diet. It’s just how we eat, always, with all these rules that are just sort of baked in. It does feel a lot like being gaslit because there really is no problem there. I’m the problem.

Virginia

What is food like when you do get together with these relatives or in family gatherings? 

Serena

They are very exuberant around food. Very much it’s about color and presentation and fresh and it’s delicious and it’s usually abundant. There’s still a lot of rhetoric around, well, we don’t eat processed foods. So, we’re not going to have chips with the salsa. And for dessert we will do something with fruit. I mean, there’s nothing wrong with it. But there’s always that level of, we’re doing this pristine and doing it right. So we’re not going to ever serve fun foods. Maybe there’ll be some chocolate that appears at the end of the meal, but it’s dark chocolate of the bitterest sort.

Virginia

The least tasty of chocolates.

Serena

There aren’t a whole lot of get-togethers, it’s maybe once or twice a year. And so it’s not the kind of thing where I face it regularly. It’s more how to maintain that relationship over the years and over time, not like the every weekend gathering. But yeah, food is is scrumptious and follows lots of amazing recipes. And it’s all based on very much restrictive, all whole food, all plant-based.

Virginia

Interesting. Do you feel like you can get enough to eat at those meals? Is there enough food, even though it’s sort of specific? Or do you walk away feeling dissatisfied?

Serena

I’ve found ways, especially in the disorder, to feel full. But satisfaction, as you just named, is definitely something I’ve really only started to name and discover in recovery. Because the trick for me during a lot of those years was like I have to get as full as possible but on things that were just hella fiber-rich and are filled with juice or water or something that would kind of make me feel full versus satisfied.

My kids, however, are the ones who actually started to flag it for me pretty early on because they were like we’re never full or we never get enough. Or why can’t we have eggs for breakfast? Or, you know, where’s the yogurt? 

Virginia

Why can’t we have eggs? Yes.

Serena

Or there’s no butter for the toast! Speaking of Burnt Toast…

Virginia

Right! Oh God, toast without butter is a crime.

So there’s a performance of abundant food and a celebration of food, but not necessarily either the types of foods or quantities of food that you would find satisfying, or that your children find satisfying.

Serena

Right. I think that the kids were the canary in the coal mine. Like, wait, hold on. Yeah, it’s all very much of one type of thing. There’s no fat and there’s no substance.

Virginia

And I’m just thinking so many kids—littler kids, but even older kids, too—just don’t eat those kinds of foods. I would take my children to a meal like that and they would be like, shat do I do? They’re just not there yet with eating lots of vegetables. They want white bread, they want french fries, grilled cheese, and especially when they’re in a new experience like a big overwhelming family gathering. They are not their most open minded about trying lots of food, they want to get something satisfying and go back to playing. And this is a normal way for kids to interact with food.

Serena

Yeah, I remember one particularly fraught gathering when one of my family members asked my kids with genuine curiosity, “So what are your favorite foods?” And I just knew that my oldest was in a phase of loving fried chicken. And I was just like, oh, no, no, no, no. Because I knew it was coming. And lo and behold, he said fried chicken and mashed potatoes. And there was this kind of like, oh, your mom is really not doing a good job—or at least that’s how I took it. You’re not doing it right if your kids know what fried chicken tastes like.

Virginia

I mean, are you not doing it right or are you letting them experience one of the true joys in life? It sounds like you and your kids are on the same page, which is helpful. Do you feel like you have other allies in the family? Like other folks who are at these gatherings who are also loosely on the same page with you about this stuff?

Serena

For sure, my husband. From the get go, he’s been like, I love all foods. And so that’s been really helpful for me to kind of come back to. I think my dad has really, I’ve had to talk with him about the orthorexia of our upbringing and you know how it came out of an understandable place with his cancer, but how it really became something that was unhealthy. And he remarkably, in his 80s, has been able to say, I see how that could have been hurtful or damaging or restrictive from the get go.

Virginia

That’s amazing.

Serena

Yeah. But otherwise, I do feel like I have to be on guard and protect myself and keep that boundary of, I know I’m in recovery. And it’s the best thing that I can be doing for myself. And I just have to let go of the rules that I subscribed to for so long, even though that was something that I got so much feeling of superiority and identity from in the eating disorder.

Virginia

This may not be an idea that resonates right now and feel free to say so. But one thing I often think about, and I think someone mentioned this in a Burnt Toast discussion recently, is: When you’re eating with people who are eating in a much more restrictive way than you, it can be really helpful to reframe it as “I get to eat what I want.” Instead of feeling like I’m so bad, because I’m not adhering to their standards.

It’s I’m free from their standards, I get to feed myself, and they don’t get to do that. Does that land at all?

Serena

It does land. Yeah. I mean, it’s so tricky, because I was so young when it all started, so it never really felt wrong. It felt safe. You know, we’re doing this for my dad’s survival. And then it just felt right because it was always portrayed in this, like, “we’re so much better than the standard American person eating crap.”

So, I like that and I would try that on for sure. But it’s not something that’s really comes easily yet. I still feel like, well, I know I’m supposed to be doing this. But I really remember how much comfort there was in knowing that this was a safe way to eat, no danger here, you know? 

Virginia

That makes sense. That’s a way in which your story differs a bit from a more common story I hear, which is like, “as a kid, I got to eat whatever I wanted. And then when my dieting set in, as you know, all these foods were suddenly off limits.” And so often, for folks who’ve had that experience, it’s about reclaiming these comfort foods that you were denied, reclaiming this experience of comfort that you then didn’t let yourself have. But for you, comfort was defined differently. So now you’re having to redefine comfort and find food as a source of comfort in a different way, which sounds really hard. 

Serena

Yeah. I hadn’t thought of that. The return to comfort food is not really... It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. 

Virginia

Right. Do your kids have comfort foods that are things that kind of fall outside what you as a kid would have considered comfort food?

Serena

Oh, for sure. Well, the fried chicken. I think my husband’s been a good influence. So they love burgers, and they love mac and cheese, and they love pizza, and all that standard stuff that I’m actually having to discover as comfort food now. I think of them as being clear channels of what tastes good, what feels good.

Virginia

Yes, yes. I love that. I feel like that can be helpful to see, especially when it’s our kids, right? Because seeing your kid experience comfort and pleasure is of course rewarding to you as a parent, kind of what we’re hard-wired to want. It can be helpful even if your brain is not responding the same way to it, to see your child having that experience, when you’re dealing with seeing these other family members pushing this other message. 

I’m also wondering if when you go to these family gatherings, if it’s worth making a plan for when your nuclear family will actually eat. Like, making a plan to stop for ice cream afterwards. Like, considering the big family meal as more of an appetizer and then letting yourself go out for like a really nice dinner later because why should you all feel deprived. It’s just something to play with maybe.

Serena

I like that. 

Virginia

Often on days when there’s a big family meal, there’s not a lot of attention paid to breakfast. Like, we’ll have family over for lunch and then I will still want dinner at six o’clock, even if we had a big meal at noon. And sometimes my husband or someone will be like, oh, but we had that big meal. And I’m like, yeah, but four hours have passed. I think sometimes in our culture we have this idea that on big feast days, that’s all you need. But that’s not how a lot of our bodies work. And that’s a feature, not a bug.

So making a plan for how you will still get fed throughout that day takes some pressure off that meal needing to be something that it can’t be, right? Because the odds of you coming in and being like, Hey, guys, we’re bringing fried chicken to the family potluck…

Serena

That will be my next stage of recovery,

Virginia

I mean, I love that as a goal. I love that as a goal for us. But I can see that that might not feel doable yet. You know, if you were seeing them every week, I would feel like that would be more important to push. But if it’s a once or twice a year thing, it’s probably in some ways not worth the hassle. 

Serena

Yeah, I think the the family meals will potentially always be fraught if things continue as they have been. But I think my hope is to have just a lessening of food and this lifestyle stuff as a central part of what we talk about or how we relate. I think if I continue to get stronger in this, you know, I’m different and it’s okay, then I could see bringing something along. I actually did bring some banana bread to this last gathering, but it had white flour in it and it had oil in it. And it definitely sat on their counter. I’m not even sure they ate it. 

Virginia

I mean, that’s on them. You get to eat the banana bread. In terms of shifting the conversation, you’ve had this coming out process that went the way it went. When you’re with them, this is still a big theme of general family conversation is talking about the diets and the food rules and that kind of thing.

Serena

Yeah, it’s truly their professional focus. It’s not just “this is how we eat,” it’s “this is what we teach. This is what we produce. This is how we are in the world and want as many people to get on board as possible.”

Virginia

God, that sounds exhausting. There’s so many jobs that are boring to talk about in a lot of detail. Like if they were accountants, like, would it be okay for them to talk about taxes for the whole meal? It’s just interesting, when people’s professions become this sort of calling/cult experience that they then can’t recognize how boring this is.

What do you think about the idea of trying to set a boundary with them, like, “heads up, before the next family meal, here’s where I am with my recovery, and it’s really important that I don’t talk about X,Y, and Z. Would love to catch up on all of your lives, but hoping we can do it without…” How does that feel as an idea to you?

Serena

I love that the way that sounds. It would be a huge step for me for sure. Because I think the way it’s felt the last two years is just Oh, I have to power through I have to make sure I don’t regress and use this as a reason to go back into the eating disorder. And not let it make me feel like I’m doing the wrong thing, or I’m somehow bad or failing, because I’m not on the family bandwagon anymore.

So I love that idea of kind of proactively saying, Hey, this is what I need. And can we please enjoy a meal together but not talk about food or what’s right and wrong as far as what we prefer? And what can I bring? You know, that kind of thing.

Virginia

Absolutely. I also want to hold space for like hosting a big family meal is a lot of work and whatever diet ideology you’re overlaying is added work. But just the sheer act of feeding people is always labor, so contributing where it makes sense to contribute and then also that lets you bring something you do enjoy eating, like the banana bread. There’s one thing on the table that your kids like even even if you don’t go as far as fried chicken. That can be a really nice way to do it.

And it softens a little bit, what may make them feel defensive about you setting that boundary. But I also want to be clear that we can’t control their reactions, right? Them getting defensive because you set a boundary for your health is a Them Problem, not a You Problem.

Because if you think about it, what everyone in your family did was to rally around your dad when he was sick and make all these dietary changes because they were what your dad needed. Your health is just as important. And now you have a health issue that requires a different approach to food to save you. And what if everybody rallied around that and said, “What Serena needs is for us to change the way we’re talking about food and have doughnuts on the table at breakfast and eggs. What if we did this because her health really matters.”

Serena

That gives me goosebumps, actually. That reframing is so generous and I would have a really hard time with my extended family going that way. Because eggs are evil and butter is evil. And you know, it’s just, there’s really no getting through a lot of that stuff.

Virginia

I agree. I don’t think you would win them over on all of this. I mean, it sounds like they’ve built their lives and their business around these beliefs. But I do think it might be helpful for you to hold on to that framing of if they couldn’t do that for you, that is them choosing their business model over a family member’s health. And it is what it is.

I think they probably have a lot of active disordered eating in their own lives they’re not looking at. I’m just totally speculating here, because I don’t know them at all. But they may have their own reasons that we should feel compassion for, for why they couldn’t support you in that way. But it still sucks that they wouldn’t support you in that way.

Serena

Yeah, having compassion for that sort of not really blindness, but maybe, I don’t know, having blinders on. I think that that’s something that I am coming to as more of the nuanced, you know, year three of recovery or two whatever this is. I can’t change the way people think or feed themselves and that’s not really my job. My job is to find ways of relating to them as humans and finding that place of connection.

It’s hard to jump off the bus and want to keep up with the bus at the same time. I still want to be accepted and approved of and all those sorts of little kid feelings. This is why we do what our family does, because we want to be part of this community. So yeah, it is hard to take that separate path, but stay connected or stay alongside.

Virginia

I think that’s something you and your recovery team will be working on for a long time. Food brings up such deep stuff for all of us. It really, really does. That question of feeling accepted is just enormous. And how do we ever truly get there? Because in a way it would be easier if you felt like estrangement was the appropriate path for you, the necessary path. It would be painful. There’s grieving. I don’t want to simplify estrangement, but it’s a choice people make when it’s so bad, they can’t maintain the relationship and they have to protect themselves and it’s a really valid choice, but you are not, it sounds like, in that place. You want to maintain connections with these people. And that’s valid, too.

And so it’s like okay, what does that look like? What do I need to protect myself when I’m with them? What strategies? Maybe it’s conversations you have with your husband about like, when x topic comes up, you jump in and and pivot us quickly to sports or something. Having some of those like plans in place of like, if you see me stuck with Aunt so-and-so, come over and rescue me because probably she’s just talking about how much she hates eggs.

And maybe have the plan to have a meal afterwards that you guys will actually enjoy. Or a meal beforehand. Eat first, feed yourselves first! I don’t know why I said afterwards, actually. Now I want you to have the meal before you go. So you don’t have to feel sad while you’re there that you’re hungry and can’t be fed. That feels really important and will probably have your kids be in better moods about being there, too. Because they’re not getting cranky hungry. I just think managing everyone’s hunger is always so important. 

Serena

It’s interesting that you bring up estrangement because I’ve wondered if that was something that would have to happen. But I think the reason I sent in my question is because I don’t want that to have to be the end of the road. But I think the more committed I am to my recovery, the clearer it will become what actually is possible. But I like to think that using these strategies is kind of a middle ground.

Virginia

Well, it’s always an option, right? No decision you’re making is the final decision on how you interact with these people for the rest of your life. There may come a place where that feels right. Or it may be more of the work of how do you detach your sense of your own value and your relationship with food? How can that become its own thing, separate from this dynamic?

Because I’m guessing your husband is probably annoyed by it, but not as triggered by it. Like, he’s like walking into this strange world like, wow, these people have strong feelings about stuff and so glad I’m gonna go get a burger later. It’s still kind of gets to a point where it’s exasperating but not triggering in the same way.

Serena

Yeah. I think that’s a good distinction. 

Virginia

I mean, it sounds like you’re pretty clear on what your goal is, for right now, of wanting to be able to maintain the relationships without so much food talk. Do you talk to them much in between visits? Do you have other ongoing communication? Or not really?

Serena

Not as much as I used to honestly, because when I was so on board and going to all the conferences and all the things, too, that revolved around plant based, it was kind of exciting to be part of the same team. But that’s really dropped off quite a bit.

Virginia

That sounds like probably a good thing.

Serena

Yeah, not really intentionally, but it just kind of happened because that’s just not where my energy is going and can’t.

Virginia

Absolutely. But it is a change in the relationship, if you had more points of contact with them throughout the year before and now there’s a separation. It’s tough. One thought I had was: Can you find other ways to connect with them that are not about food? But it sounds like this is so fully their lives and their world. It would be hard for you to be like, “I’m getting really into embroidery. Who else likes embroidery?” My sister-in-law and I talk about knitting all the time. And we’re also on the same page about food, but if we weren’t, we could just talk about knitting. Having those safe topics that you can get into with people.

Serena

There is a lot about exercise.

Virginia

Ah, well, that’s a…

Serena

Mixed blessing?

Virginia

That’s not at all a land mine. I was thinking more hand crafts, but okay.

Serena

Maybe gardening? I mean, occasionally, it’s like books or what podcasts? Or, like, about Ukraine.

Virginia

We can only spend so much time thinking about the end of the world.

Serena

And it’s hard because eating plant-based is a way to save the planet. So there’s that whole piece of like, well, here’s what we’re doing!

Virginia

Right. I was thinking even with gardening, they could bring it back around really quickly to like, we’re growing our own food, because blah blah blah and you’re down the rabbit hole.

Serena

Maybe it’s worth me taking up a hobby just to have that talk about.

Virginia

Jigsaw puzzles? I’m just trying to think of hobbies that would be really hard to pull into a diet context.

Serena

Right, Zero to do with fiber.

Virginia

It’s tricky.

Serena

Maybe that could be a Friday Thread. 

Virginia

Oh my gosh, I love that. We’re gonna do that the Friday this airs. That’s a great. What are your non-diet-culture hobbies? is a really great question.

Serena

Not even food adjacent. 

Virginia

Right. Totally outside the realm, like board games is another one maybe. 

Serena

Bird watching. 

Virginia

Bird watching. It’s hard to get into diet talk around bird watching.

Serena

Yeah, unless hiking is involved, but yeah. 

Virginia

Of course, yes. Okay, there we are. I only watch in my own garden. My mom does more hiking birdwatching, but I’m sitting on my front porch. It’s great. Oh Man. 

Well, I hope this has been somewhat helpful. I really appreciate you sharing. Is there anything we haven’t talked about? That would be sort of helpful to brainstorm further on?

Serena

Oh, gosh, no. I was really nervous because I don’t want to get into that, like, “You’re wrong. I’m right. You’re bad. I’m good,” that kind of stuff.

Virginia

Totally. 

Serena

But this has felt really productive to try to just find a way through that’s supportive, that’s protective, that’s connected, that also takes into account the fact that my children are usually part of this, and that I really want to change the narrative for them. So no, I think it’s just been really fruitful. And it’s not like we did tie it up in a neat little bow.

Virginia

No, no, I mean, I don’t think this is the kind of thing one can tie up. Because I think you’re going to be navigating this in different ways. For a long time.

But I think just sort of centering your own needs in the conversation is helpful, and and how much it matters that you’re doing this really hard work of recovery, how much that matters for your health your kids and this is so important and worth protecting.

Serena

I think it wasn’t until you said about calling ahead of time and saying, “This is what I need for my recovery or for my health or my progress.” Because I’ve, until now, I think I’ve just been so apologetic and ashamed A. that I couldn’t make the plant-based thing work and look what happened to me and B. part of my recovery involves eating all the things. I’m now not part of the hierarchy of perfect plant based poster children.

Virginia

You reacted like a person with a body reacts to restrictions. You did what humans do. And I know that you’re looking at these family members and thinking, Well, they didn’t ever go this way, they’re able to sustain this. But it is such a small percentage of people who can live on these plans long term and not end up where you’ve ended up. This is what our bodies do in the face of restriction. They either push back and we can’t sustain it or some of us have the brain chemistry that goes deeper, deeper, deeper into restriction and gets really dangerous. And neither of those is a failing! They’re your body sounding alarm signals and saying, this isn’t okay, this isn’t safe.

And I can understand that sense of failure because this is all so tied to what you grew up with and the expectations that were wired into you about how you should relate to food. But you’re a human and humans need to eat, right? Many times a day, even, and many food groups. 

Serena

A friend just read this poem out loud to me by Andrea Gibson today. They are a spoken word poet who did a performance out in Colorado for an eating disorder recovery center. It was about goosebumps and how finding the magic in life can bring us goosebumps. And it did give me goosebumps while I was listening to it. So I want to look up more of their poetry. So that’s one thing that’s exciting to me.

Virginia

That sounds really wonderful. My recommendation this week is a little callback to birdwatching, which is we put a bluebird box up in our yard for the first time this year and had a nest of blue birds. I saw the blue birds arriving and they were like flying around, considering the box. I was like an anxious real estate agent. I was like, how do I make it more appealing to them? Like, oh, they’re coming for another open house? Our school district is very good. There are not a lot of predators in our neighborhood! But they did choose us. And then we had this whole experience this summer of watching them build the nest and then spotting the eggs and seeing the baby birds, seeing the baby birds fledge. Oh, it was so lovely. And it was very easy! And I didn’t have to do any work other than the initial 10 minutes of hanging a bluebird box.

So I recommend it for just something that’s nothing to do with food and body and diets and just kind of take you out of that whole space. Also watching how hard bluebirds work to feed their—I mean, all birds—work to feed their babies. They are feeding them all day long. It’s so much effort. They’re just flying out for something, flying back. And flying out, flying back in. And it’s great for remembering how essential it is and how much work it is to feed kids, feed ourselves. I had a lot of respect for this little blue bird family. I hope they come back next year. 

Serena

I love their color, too. It’s such a happy blue. 

Virginia

Yes, yes. And the eggs are blue. It’s really cool.

Thank you again, Serena. This was such a great conversation. I just really appreciate you being open to it and sharing with us and I think everyone’s going to learn a lot from this.

Serena

I hope so. I’m here for the conversation!