In this episode Diana welcomes back author Dana Diaz, who discusses her second book 'Choking on Shame.' Dana shares her experiences with narcissistic abuse in her marriage and childhood, emphasizing the importance of telling one's story, forgiveness, and healing. Dana also talks about her upcoming third book, 'Rising from the Ashes,' which focuses on her life post-abuse and her journey toward healing and self-love. Discussing the complexities of dealing with unhealed trauma and finding inner peace, Dana provides valuable insights and hope for those navigating similar struggles. Listeners are encouraged to seek professional help and understand that it's never too late to start the healing process.

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Dana Diaz Part 2

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Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic [00:01:00] violence advocate, Diana Winkler. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help.

Now here is Diana.

Welcome, welcome to the podcast once more. I appreciate you coming back to hear some more of Dana Diaz. She is on her second book that she's been talking about, Choking on Shame. And again, she was on the podcast in season three, episode 1 53. So if you haven't heard, part one of this conversation, go back to part one.

But it [00:02:00] would be really great to also listen to episode 1 53 'cause then you would get the whole picture of her story and some really great advice and help for those of you who have been with a narcissist or maybe you're dealing with one now. I'm not gonna go through her bio again.

Everything is in a show notes for you. So without delay, here we go with part two, my conversation with Dana Diaz.

And, I guess I should clarify that, what makes it called narcissistic abuse? It's just when a narcissist abuses you. But the difference is that a narcissist will enact multiple and all abuses in some cases versus, and I'm not trying [00:03:00] to minimize, but like in my childhood, I was physically abused and verbally abused and neglected in many ways in my marriage to this narcissist.

Yes, there was verbal abuse for sure, which we discussed with the cussing 'cause he called me things that became as common as my name. I actually heard them more than my name. Um mm-hmm. There was sexual abuse. And yes, I will debate anybody who tells me that if you're married, you cannot be sexually abused.

I disagree. If you are taking advantage of a woman that does not consensually want to be with you, uh, that is sexual abuse. Yes. There was financial abuse. So many examples of that. Legal abuse, the threatening to, call the authorities, creating the narrative of, you're crazy, you're unstable.

I'm gonna call child services, so I'll have custody of our son if you leave me. I will do this legally to you. It's this constant threat. And then you add in all the other things , the [00:04:00] intimidation, the stalking, you're basically scared for your life.

And I always say it's like, people call it walking on eggshells. I'm like, no, it was a minefield. It was a minefield. Yeah. Because I was stepping very carefully, very cautiously. Every time I opened my mouth, even my facial expressions, I could not say anything or do anything. And World War III would erupt because of my facial expression.

So I was very careful, but it doesn't matter where I stepped, stuff was blowing up here, but I couldn't deal with it or process it. 'cause then something was blowing up over here and then in the midst of that, I'm trying to protect my son and shelter him from as much of it as I could, even though my ex was always trying to drag him into it so that he could blame me for our sons, unhealthy, witness of things that no child should ever have to witness or hear between parents.

So it was, uh, yeah, it was something. And it's interesting because so many people read [00:05:00] Gasping for Air, including the owner of my publishing company. She actually at one point messaged me and said, I thought this was nonfiction. I said, It is. It was my true story. And she says, I can't even believe it. I said, well, you can't make this stuff up.

Trust me. I would not have that kind of imagination. But it is a page turner. So it has appealed to people for entertainment that just like an exciting, uh, dysfunctional relationship read. But for the bulk of people who have been through this type of relationship, I'm glad to report that I get messages every day.

Every single day of people saying that it gave them strength or it helped them to feel less alone because they thought it was just them or, you know, whatever it is. I've had people message me that they're finally leaving. They're divorcing, they're trying to get things in order or whatever it is. And I am certainly not [00:06:00] here saying, go get divorced, leave whoever.

'cause sometimes it's safer for somebody to stay. Um, it, it's just the reality, unfortunately sometimes. But I just want to give people, if nothing else, the hope that. There is something more to life and that no, you were not put here to suffer. And, it hurts my heart when I hear people say that. 'cause I, I remember feeling very much that way.

But that's where the third book comes in. 'cause the third book is actually the sequel. Mm-hmm To gasping for air. We kind of went out of order, kind of like the Star Wars movies did for a while there. But again, I only intended to ever write the one. So gasping for error. Then we have the prequel, which is my childhood, choking on shame.

So coming in March is rising from the ashes where it picks up. Right where gasping for error left off where I am leaving the driveway of the farm that I shared with my ex-husband moving out, moving on with [00:07:00] life. But I thought everything would be fine. I think when you get out of those. Uh, situations you think, oh, everything's fine.

Nothing can go wrong. And, there's a lot of healing to do and things are a little messy while you're doing the healing. You don't necessarily perceive healthy relationships and healthy connections the way a healthy person would because there's this distrust and this anxiety, and we, there's so much still there that has to be dealt with.

It's coming to the realization of those things. And as I said, coming to terms with even my mother who, went no contact with me before I even divorced with my ex, she opted to go no contact. 'cause she said that she could not be her husband's wife and my mother at the same time, and she was choosing to be his wife instead of being my mother.

Mm-hmm. So that was heartbreaking. But this is my last resort and rising from the ashes, like, okay, I'm out of this marriage. Like, there's [00:08:00] one scene, it was hard to write in rising from the ashes where I'm actually on Christmas Eve at her house. I hadn't been invited, just my son had been, but I didn't get to see him Christmas day because of the divorce.

My ex was going to have him. So that was my time with him was Christmas Eve and she took it. Without even consulting with me. So I ended up going with my son. Mm-hmm. I ended up on my knees on Christmas Eve in my mother's basement on the cold ceramic tile floor. Literally begging with my hands clasped, begging her just to be my mother to see me, to come to my wedding.

'cause I'm newly engaged, to this man. I've known many, many, many years and I just wanted her to be a part of that. There was no emotion stone face. And she actually walked away from me and left me there on the floor in tears on Christmas. Mm-hmm. So there's a lot of [00:09:00] heartbreak, but it's a very happy ending.

And, we talked about coming full circle before, but the ending of rising for ashes. I'll give this little snippet. 'cause I haven't really talked about the book to anybody. Not even my husband knows about it. I don't let him read books until they're published. But, the very end actually comes back to my mother that I said, after everything I'd been through my healing, the key to my healing was resolving that very first relationship I had in my life.

I'm getting chills right now just thinking about it because mm-hmm. Everything in my life had to do with my mother rejecting me. But it took somebody saying to me. You can't reject your mother, you can't hate her. You can't have these ill feelings towards her for what she, how she treated you. Because if you do that, you're rejecting a part of yourself.

And that just, that was as eye-opening as telling me I'm a child of God. Because then I had to look at her, uh, and the same person said that I had to put a [00:10:00] picture of my mother up in my house where it was prominence. It couldn't be hidden away somewhere. And um, the very last chapter of the book of Rising from the Ashes is me doing that.

And it was not pretty. And I had some choice words that I cannot say on this podcast to say to that picture. But you know what? I still have the picture right here in my office and I look at it every day. I even say, hi mom. We have no relationship. She has nothing to do with me. We have no communication.

But she's there 'cause she's my mother. And I'm gonna love her anyway because she was just a kid. And I forgive that I had to come to terms with knowing that she came from an abusive household. She had an abusive alcoholic father and endured terrible domestic violence. And she was just a baby when she had me.

And she was a baby [00:11:00] who hadn't resolved her own unhealed trauma. So even though I was her baby and I expected her to handle me better and to know what to do and how to do it, she didn't. And I have to forgive that because I mean, what 16, 17-year-old girl that's in an abusive household would know what to do with a baby she doesn't even want.

So, with that, I just encourage people to maybe look at, I'm not saying it excuses it, but I think mm-hmm. It's helped me get past the past. To look at it with a more loving heart than a resentful one. Because if you hold onto that resentment and that anger and that pain, you don't have room for the blessings and the love and the hope for the future and in the present, everything that's right in front of you.

So that, that's essentially where we go with rising from the ashes. And I want people to hear that message loud [00:12:00] and clear. I'm really glad that you pointed out the forgiveness aspect. 'cause we talk about that a lot. How do you forgive somebody that's done some really horrible things to you?

And they never repent of it. They never ask forgiveness or come around like we want them to. But I'm glad you mentioned, yeah, I can still forgive my mother in. An aspect of I'm not gonna live or live rent free in my head and ruin the rest of my life. I'm gonna move on with my life and help other people.

But yeah, I respect that. Yes, she is my mother. And that's okay to say that. Yeah. Yeah. She's my mother, but I don't have to let her ruin my life. Exactly. And we move on. I mean, at the end of the day, we're all human. I said it before, but I say [00:13:00] it almost every day. We all make mistakes. And I can own up to mine and not feel badly about it. It's just sometimes you make a mistake, things happen unintentionally, intentionally, we screw up.

But you know, we have to give that same grace to other people, because not everybody. Is at the same level of consciousness. Not everybody is faithful. Even my mother, when she got with her husband, when I was very young, actually, he didn't feel he was not Christian at all. So we stopped going to church.

I actually started getting rides with my friends that were Catholic to, or I'd sleep over at their houses on Saturday nights so I could go to Sunday mass with them. But, even in college, I was able to drive, so I would go myself and I continued that. But, you know, it's about respect. We can't

assume that everybody thinks like we do because they don't, not everybody comes from the same history that we come from. [00:14:00] Geographic differences, cultural differences. We're all so unique and that's a beautiful thing, but even within our own families, she has the right to make her own choices.

Mm-hmm. She has turned herself away from God, but that is her choice. It is not my place for anyone else's to, force her somewhere where she doesn't feel that she wants to be. But again, that's between her and God. But, um, it's not my place, so I have to respect it, understand that she has the right, and I almost, got even to the point in my healing where I was like, you know, I actually have to appreciate even how she, stood her ground as far as her relationship with me. As terrible it is as it is to reject your own child. She had a very clear idea, of what she wanted in life and how she wanted to live her life. Whether I agree with that or not. She was being true to herself and [00:15:00] respecting herself.

And self-love is not something that I had the privilege of, even knowing what that was for most of my life. And I still, every once in a while have to, give myself a pat on the back or remind myself I'm pretty okay. You know? 'cause I grew up with such terrible self-esteem and that first marriage didn't help at all.

But my mother always had a sense of exactly who she was and what she wanted, and I did not fit into that. So, there's things I think we can learn from people like that and understand and just give them that grace that they're having their own human experience. And it may not be the path we walked, may not be the way we would've walked it, but that's what they're doing.

And just have to love them through it. Pray for them, hope for them. But at the end of the day, we also have to do what gives ourselves some inner peace, which sometimes means, not having that relationship with them. So, I respect that about her. We have, like I said, we are completely estranged, but my [00:16:00] life goes on and I have her picture here in my office and I look at it every day and.

It's all right. It's okay because God loves me again. I'm his child and he loves my mother too. Even though she's made mistakes, and hopefully one day she'll realize that, there is love in her life and that she is worth more than what she is allowed herself to have. And open herself up to that.

But that is not my place to force her to do so. Hmm. I'm very fortunate that it's, my narcissist ex, we have no contact at all. Because we didn't have any children together, which looking back I am grateful for that. I didn't bring children into that marriage. Yeah. To suffer along with me, it would've been a different ending.

But yeah, I'm able, to say that I've healed. Significantly, because I'm not in that relationship. Yes. With him, I don't [00:17:00] have to have any contact. 'cause when you get out of that, you have a better perspective as to what you went through rather than you're still in it and you're still dealing with this person and, they're trying to make your life, miserable.

I was really fortunate that I just cut 'em off. And you have to, unfortunately, that's the only way, and I try to tell people that you can't, there is no healing when you're still in those circumstances. But it's impossible. I always tell people, I liken it to growing flowers in your garden.

If you plant the seeds and then as soon as the flowers start blooming, you start giving them chemicals and poison and. They're not gonna keep growing. You cannot heal something. You cannot grow as a human being if you're still in that toxicity. And it's a shame sometimes that we have to cut off people that are biologically, family.

But, I think that [00:18:00] the way to look at that and what has been my experience in life from a very young age is that, we're all part of God's family. And I cannot tell you how much of a difference it has made since, sadly not having contact with my abusive mother and stepfather.

And I don't have contact with my ex either and many other people who have enabled them and sided with them in some way. But, uh, or they have cut contact with me, which is fine, but it's amazing now that they're kind of out of the way, like pulling weeds outta that same garden, now the weeds are gone.

So I can see the other flowers that were always there and they're rooting for me and they're growing with me, and they're wanting me to grow it all and, and want me to be the beautiful flower that I can be. And it's just astounding to me the difference that having supportive, encouraging positive people around you, that what that makes versus being in those situations where every [00:19:00] single day I was diminished, insulted, ridiculed, demeaned.

It just any negative adjective you can come up with is what that experience is like. But then you turn that around. You can't help but smile when somebody speaks positivity to you or encourages you, and then you wanna do that to others. And it has this beautiful domino effect because I know people, there's that thing called resting bee face.

You know that? Mm-hmm. People used to say that I had that back then, and it wasn't that I was just. I was miserable, I was suffering. I wasn't, there was nothing to smile about. But, um, now it's, it, it's nice because I run into people sometimes that I haven't seen in years. And I know one person said, oh, it's good to see you smile again.

It's good to see you laughing. Or, you know, one person, the best compliments I've had, they looked at me just physically, they're like, you look healthy. Because I had, I had gotten [00:20:00] so sickly physically during that. Mm-hmm. And especially towards the end of my marriage with my first husband that, yeah, even my physical health has improved with my mental health.

So, and it's such an empowering thing to, to know like, okay, I actually had the choice. You know? Thankfully I was able to get out of it alive, so to speak. And everything's just really good now. Everything's really good. It's giving me that time and that space now to just tweak those little things.

I call them like bruises that sometimes, somebody might say or do something and that bruise gets poked a little. I'm like, Ooh, that hurts. That didn't feel good. But I can kind of explore that a little more now and be like, okay. We still, I don't think the healing journey ever ends, but I think that, no, you know, we take those opportunities when our, when our bruises get poked a little bit to say like, okay, what do we still have here to work out?

Where is that coming from? And then [00:21:00] deal with it. Because more times than not, it's just, it's the past. I always tell people it's never about the presence and usually when somebody comes at you as in confrontational, abusive, mistreats you in some way, it doesn't even have to do with you. It has to do with them.

Yes, it's their unhealed trauma speaking to you. It's their issues with themselves that they just can't stand something that they see about you, that it's your light that's disturbing their peace. It's your potential, your achievement that's making them feel. All that yucky stuff they already feel about themselves.

But, all you can do is love. I just try to remind myself, even when, believe me, there's, I always say there's the angel and the devil on my shoulders, and the devil just wants to tell 'em a few f-bombs and say a few things, but then the angels like, love them, love them. And I just take a deep breath and okay, this is coming from a source of pain.

Remind myself of that. I know what that's like. It's not gonna be helpful. It's not gonna be productive or [00:22:00] get anywhere if we're gonna go back at 'em, with more evil words and nastiness. We're just gonna love, and some people aren't receptive. I had that experience last week and, a very, very nasty person, who told me the most vicious and awful thing that I won't even repeat.

And I went back to them with love and said, I hear pain in what you said to me, and I understand this isn't about me, but I wish that one day you would. Find out how wonderful you are and love yourself enough to respect and value other people's lives as well. And she came at me with, an equally, just like her first message that I deserved what she said to me in the beginning.

And that's that. Some people just don't wanna hear it. They don't wanna receive it. But that's not gonna change who I am or make me change my character. I'm still gonna come from a good place and remind myself there is evil in the world. There are people in this world that want to sit with their demons and stay there forever more.

All I can [00:23:00] do is love them and pray for them. That's it. I can't, I just like my mother, I can't make that choice for them. It's kind of like drug and alcohol addiction. They have to be able, just like we had to when we were in our situations, you have to make the choice for yourself. Nobody could have told me, I had people say, you don't look happy, or, he's a real this or that, and you should get out.

You think, I don't know that you don't think, I don't know. I was being mistreated. Of course I did. It's just not that easy to walk away, especially when you do have a child with a person, it makes it that much more complicated. But if nothing else, but legally and financially, it's a little more complicated.

Yeah, there's just so much there. But, all in all, I just hope people know, know that there, there's choices, there's hope, and, and one of the biggest choices you can make, and kind of like how I said about me and my sister, is just to choose where you're coming from. Choose to come from a place of love because, putting yourself out there and behaving in negative ways, behaving in, ways [00:24:00] that basically, like they're acting, it's not gonna get you anywhere and it's not gonna solve that.

This world is angry and full of hate more now than ever. And I don't think we need to participate in that hatred in that division. We need to actually turn that around a little bit and we all can make that difference by starting with the people in our house. Well start with ourselves and then your kids, your spouse, your whoever, your grandma, your coworkers, the person at church, the person that you run into at the library or the post office or wherever.

Just be kind. Be kind. And maybe then they'll be a little kinder that day too, to somebody else. Hmm. I agree with that. I wanted to comment on what you said about the bruises, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I'm 52 and I had some triggers this past year and just brought up some, stuff from my past that I couldn't deal with the, the physical response to those memories.

And for the first time in my [00:25:00] life, I'm going to a professional therapist and a psychologist and, I've had some peer counseling and peer groups that were extremely helpful that I'm, really glad that I have a therapist, to help me through these bruises or triggers

that have come up in my life right now. I mean, I was married to my ex and I left in 2008. That was a long time ago, but it's never too late to get some help and to reach out to get help with hundred percent some of these things. I know my dear friend that I do mending this all groups with, she's a senior citizen now and she just wrote her book of her life after, so.

Uh, her abuse was from her childhood and she had some memory loss, but, she's finally getting to write her book [00:26:00] now. And she's a fantastic writer as well. But what would you say to folks that they hear you and they see you writing these books about your experience, but they're afraid to write their story.

They're like, people are gonna judge me. They're not gonna like what I say, or they're gonna sue me. Or what would you say to somebody that might be thinking about writing their story. Well, those are all very valid concerns and as somebody who is now publishing book three, they are still valid concerns.

I am actually surprised that I have not faced any legal consequences, although, mm-hmm. On the other hand, it's very unlikely. In my, at least from my experience, I don't know many people who would like raise their hands loudly and say, oh, that's me in that book. You don't wanna claim that you're that person who did these awful things.

But I tried to [00:27:00] be, I wrote my stories. I actually, gasping for air came from a journal that I kept when, it was towards the end of my marriage to my first husband, because I honestly thought that I was going to end up dead. And that it would be made to look like an accident or there would be some excuse, and I wanted there to be a record of what was really going on in that house.

Wow. So the stories came out of that journal. So if nothing else, I tell people just journal, because sometimes I was joking with a friend this week, like some days my mind is like a bingo. Like that barrel, they spin in bingo, before they pull the little thing out. Like it's all this stuff just jumbling around six that sometimes if you just do, I've heard it called a brain dump.

I've heard it called free writing. But just write. Just write everything. Don't monitor yourself. Don't feel bad. You let it come out however it comes out, even if it's not how you would normally talk. Say what [00:28:00] you have to say. Be angry, be hurt, cry, whatever. Get it out. Because the interesting thing is that.

One, you'll feel better because it's like outside of you now. It's literally like extracting that pain from you and putting it on something else. It does actually make you feel mentally better, but you'll notice after a while when you go back, you'll start noticing patterns because visually you learn differently than mentally, if that makes any sense.

So like even when I was writing Gasping for actually even the third book, all of my writing I'd read and have to revise over and over, and I would have a wake up in the middle of the night with. Oh my gosh. Like my brain just realized after I've written these stories, that this, it's kind of like connecting the dots, like a, an a detective or investigator trying to figure out a murder with all the strings on the walls pointing to this and that.

It's like your brain starts [00:29:00] doing these, connect the dots, and you start making these connections and realizing things you hadn't seen before. Because when it's all in your head, it's, it is just jumbling around like that bingo barrel. Um mm-hmm. So it's good to get it out of you, but if you actually do wanna get into publishing a story Yes.

They're, unfortunately, those fears are valid. They are always going to be there because as long as something is in print, if somebody does feel, even if you change their names, even if you change other geographical details, different things. If somebody can provide enough evidence that those circumstances or that person or whatever it was, it is actually them and wants to take you to court.

They unfortunately do have a case. And so, I would definitely advise speaking to an attorney speaking to, different insurance companies. 'cause there are insurances you could get to cover to have that protection, for libel really, and things like that. Yes. I didn't know [00:30:00] that. Yeah, it's an expense, but, it's one worth having if you're gonna be speaking your truth.

But the, thing that's been the struggle for me has been the judgment because surprisingly, the judgment has not even come from the people who have done awful things to me. It has come from their family members, which mm-hmm are and were my family members. You'd be surprised how many people just don't wanna believe you and we'll call you all kinds of things under the sun.

And on the lighter end. 'cause you weren't there. They weren't where you were. They weren't there. They didn't see all that. They didn't. But the thing is, for them to believe you, they have to believe they love a monster. Mm-hmm. You see what I'm saying? Yep. That's pretty much it. My ex-mother-in-law, who I loved like a mother, 'cause she was a mother to me all those years, my mother was not my sister-in-law, who is my best friend.

Even people in [00:31:00] my life, mutual friends, even. People that taught my son at his school that got word and read the book, and now for you to say those things about him or that, or even about my mother, whatever, in that book, I have to be the villain so that they feel better about associating with somebody who's capable of doing the things that I claim they did.

So the judgment is honestly the biggest thing, but I keep, I just, I say it almost every day. God is the only judge. God is the only judge. You know what? And I know my truth. I know my truth firmly, and I can't let other people get me down. And let me tell you, strangers will say the most vile things, the most horrendous things behind an email or a social media post, or however they communicate with you, because they have that anonymity behind a screen.

Yeah. And it is cruel. The things I have been told, such horrific things [00:32:00] and here I am, like I'm just trying to help people heal. I think I'm doing a good thing. And, the pushback is very strong. But what I've noticed and what I have to tell myself to keep putting one foot in front of the other is that those are the people, the ones who go through that great effort to go to my website and click on contact Dana to email me, or, put the post out or however they communicate their nastiness to me.

I hit something, I hit some nail on the head. I triggered, I poked one of their bruises. That's what that is. And so in a sense, I look at those like, okay, I hear the pain. I wanna love them and help them, but they're not receptive right now. And that's okay. Hopefully that will come. But I gotta say, okay, good job, Dana.

'cause something I said or did, got to them. They can't let it go. It's haunting them. So maybe that's the propellant for change. Maybe that's the thing that's gonna compel [00:33:00] them, to change their circumstances or to take hold, take control of their life, and get that healing that they need. Because I wanna touch upon real quick what you said.

I'm 49, let me tell you, I get so many people that contact me. I am actually, I just started this month, co-leading a women's group for healing from childhood abuse. And the thing that we get, the comment we get the most is that people that are our age, forties, fifties, sixties, even, I've even had a few in the seventies, that they kind of blame themselves.

They shame themselves because, well, why now? Why am I just, how come it took me so long? I'm gonna answer that right now for you and I and for all these people that have said that to themselves. We were trying to live. We were trying to survive. Yes. Number one, when we got out, we had to go to work every day like we probably still do now.

We were raising children possibly, which is not an easy [00:34:00] task. We had family commitments, church commitments, school, whatever it was we were. Life gets very busy. Life is very distracting, but I feel like when you get to where we're about in age, like for example, my son, he's gonna be 22, very soon.

He bought his own house. He's moved up. When you start to be left with, yeah, when you start to be left with your own thoughts and you have time to reflect back and you're not in this constant hustle and bustle and have to and got and dah. Then you're like, oh my God, what the hell happened to me? You start to think back on the past, like, okay, and then when those things hit you, when somebody does say that thing or poke that bruise, you have the time and you're like, oh, oh, is that about, that was so long ago.

And that's when you start really thinking about it. And that's when you have the opportunity and the time, to usually take the reins of your healing. So, if that's [00:35:00] any incentive, I think it's always good, whether you have a therapist or a group or whatever. There's so many, there's goat yoga, there's musical, healing, modalities.

There's so many different options available to people right now that no matter what your niche is, so to speak, you can find something that will help you resolve all those feelings of the past, no matter what age you are. Yeah. Reach out to one of us. Yes. You all out there? We have resources. We know people Yes.

Wherever you are. Even in other parts of the world. Yes. So I want to make sure that the folks know where to get your books. Not a problem. You can go to my website, dana s diaz.com, the links for the two that are out are there. And then the third, book will be on there when it comes out. Or you can go straight to Amazon anywhere.

Books are sold online. I can't get the books on [00:36:00] shelves of the major retailers because of the content and the language. They, have all rejected the, application to have them on the bookshelves, but you can go anywhere online. I have it in it, it's on Kindle, so you can get the ebook if you like, having it on your phone or your iPad or whatever.

Sometimes that's easier. It's more affordable. And if you are in an abusive situation still, that would be the best option because you don't want a book that says abuse in the title sitting on your coffee table. So, but it is available wherever books are sold online. This has been great to have you back on the show again and your invitation, is

open door for you. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. I know you're gonna write some more books. You're gonna have a big, long series like Star Wars here and, yeah, I'll eat it right up here. Just come back on, let me know if you have any, anything else to share with us. It's good to see [00:37:00] you. I, so related to what you shared, thank you so eloquently today.

I appreciate that. And again, I just want everybody to know that there is hope. And there are people that are behind you. Even if you think you're alone, we're all with you and God is with you most importantly. Amen. God bless you. You as well.

Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.