Will Home Prices Keep Rising? CoreLogic’s Frank Nothaft Has a Few Answers (Audio)

Will home prices continue to rise at this furious pace, or will they plummet back to earth like they did during the housing meltdown? Or maybe something in the middle? In this episode, we’ll hear from an expert on the housing market, the impact of the pandemic on buyer demand, home prices and migration patterns, and what the data shows us about the future. Dr. Frank Nothaft is the chief economist for CoreLogic and leads an economics team that’s responsible for analysis, commentary and forecasting for the global real estate, insurance, and mortgage markets. The Southern California-based company tracks, gathers, and analyzes massive amounts of property, financial, and consumer data and provides reports for the real estate and mortgage industry along with customized business intelligence reports for clients. Join RealWealth today at realwealthshow.com to find out how to build wealth with new and renovated single-family rentals. Membership is free, and will give you access to the Investor Portal where you can view sample property pro formas and connect with our network of resources, including experienced investment counselors, property teams, lenders, 1031 exchange facilitators, attorneys, CPAs and more. And please remember to subscribe to our podcast and leave a review if you like what you hear! Thank you! Transcript: [00:00:00] [music] Speaker 1: You're listening to the Real Wealth Show with Kathy Fettke, the real estate investors' resource. [music] Kathy: Will home prices continue to rise at this furious pace, or do we have a housing crash in our future or just a slowdown in price growth? Our guest today has got a lot of information on that so I'm excited to share it with you. I'm Kathy Fettke and welcome to the Real Wealth Show. Frank Nothaft holds the position of executive, chief economist for CoreLogic. He leads the office of the chief economist and is responsible for analysis, commentary, and forecasting trends in global real estate insurance and mortgage markets. He's here with us today on the Real Wealth Show. Frank, welcome to the Real Wealth Show. I've been really looking forward to this interview. I can't believe that I almost had to do it out of a salon when we had a rolling blackout, [laughs] but here we are. Thanks for your patience. Frank: Oh, absolutely. Thanks for having me today, Kathy. Kathy: So honored really, truly so honored to have you here. A lot of people are extremely confused about what's going on and even more confused about what they should do. Should they buy? Should they sell? Should they buy investment property, apartments, single-family? Our listeners are mainly investors in one to four-unit buildings nationwide. Are we looking at a continuation of what we've been seeing with home prices going up with no end in sight? What's happening? Frank: Kathy, this summer has been hot. It's not just the temperatures, it's the housing market as well. As you know, when I look around the country, there are a number of markets where, of course, they have triple-digit temperatures, but they got double-digit home price growth and double-digit rent growth. The market is just exceptional right now. Of course, partly that's fueled by the very low [00:02:00] record low level of mortgage rates that's really driving demand. It's also fueled by a shortage of inventory for sale on the marketplace. Between both those forces, one driving up demand one curtailing supply, we've got just a crazy amount of home price growth. Now, it's not just home price growth. As I mentioned, we see some real pickup in rents, rents on single-family homes. I think that's an artifact of this change in need for space as a result of the pandemic because what we've seen is that so many families, they're looking for more space inside their home, and also more space outside their home. The corollary of this pandemic is that it's severed the need of many workers to be co-located or located near where their employer is, they can work remotely. That's enabled many of them to pick up and maybe move a little further out, or move a lot further out, and be able to afford more space, more house, more shelter to either buy or to rent. Kathy: They don't have to try to find something in a major city or just on the outskirts of a major city where everybody else wants to live and it's been difficult to get in and very expensive, they can go anywhere. That's amazing. We've understood this concept at Real Wealth for 10 years, we've been a remote company, and we wanted our employees to be happy and live anywhere they want and be able to own property. We understand the power of that. What I found is that I was more effective, because as a CEO, how many times do people come into your office and want something? If I wanted to communicate even if the person was in the office next door, I'd send an email or a text. I wasn't necessarily going in there. We [00:04:00] discovered that without the interruptions and with more focus, we were far more productive working remotely. Do you think more companies have learned that and will continue to stay remote? Frank: I think some definitely have and that's really the million-dollar question, how many of the workers who had previously been working in an office environment, working with their employer, how many now will be working remotely, either remotely full time, or some type of hybrid model where maybe they're working remotely, whatever, two days, three days, maybe four days a week, or something like that? I'll tell you a really interesting study that the McKinsey Global Institute put out earlier this year. They surveyed a whole bunch of occupations in different industries, actually in different countries too. What they concluded was that here in the US, their estimate was that as many as 20 to 25% of US workers who previously had worked in an office environment, could longer-term work remotely, three to five days a week. Wow, that's going to be a big sea change if that does come into play. Again, that's the big question; how many of those jobs that have moved remotely over the last year, how many will remain remotely? How many might switch to a hybrid model? Of course, how many will be back in the office five days a week? That's the big question. I do think we're going to see that there'll be some jobs that do remain remote permanent and/or follow a hybrid model, allowing workers to work remotely, maybe three days a week, maybe more. Kathy: What I've been telling people and again, it's such an honor to have you on the show, because, my dawg, data is so powerful. [00:06:00] I imagine you were already seeing these trends and these demographic shifts of people in high-priced markets moving to more affordable markets where they could have bigger homes and a better lifestyle, that was already happening. Would you say that the pandemic has sped that up or is it just on track with what's already been going on? Frank: Oh, that's such a great question, Kathy. Absolutely, it's accelerated these trends. We have seen these shifts more gradual prior to the pandemic but the pandemic really changes the rules of the game. I'll give you a really good example. For example, what we saw is that in a lot of the really big cities, which tend to be densely populated, high-cost markets, we've seen some movement out of them over the years for people who are looking to buy just for affordability. That really accelerated during the course of the pandemic, accelerated in places like Manhattan, but also in the Los Angeles Metro area. Downtown Los Angeles, you do have some high rises, you got greater population density, consumers revealed a preference to move out of buildings and properties like that, and move further out. With the ability to work remotely, someone who had been working for an office in downtown LA, they could pick up a move to Riverside, San Bernardino, and maybe further out. There, the cost of shelter is so much lower than it is in downtown LA. That's really provided that opportunity for many families that just pick up and move further out, obtain more space, more shelter, but also shelter that's at a lower cost. Now, they didn't just stop at Riverside and San Bernardino. If you believe you can work remotely [00:08:00] longer-term permanently, maybe pick up and move to Las Vegas, or move to Phoenix or Tucson or maybe up to Boise. Boise has been booming over the last year. We've seen prices up better than 20% in the Boise market over the last year. Kathy: Then you get places like Cincinnati, Ohio, where prices have gone up even more than that. Why? Why Cincinnati? I understand Boise, there's fishing, there's skiing, but what's in Cincinnati? Why are prices going up so much in those types of tertiary markets? Frank: Sometimes it's lifestyle. The prices aren't going quite as robustly in downtown Cincinnati but when you look at the outskirts of the city, in the metropolitan area, that's very much more suburban and you're close to a lot of amenities. Amenities, if you like the cultural events in downtown Cincinnati, but if you like the outdoors, you got a lot of amenities, both in Ohio and Kentucky as well. I think that's been very attractive for many families who are looking for just that more space and the opportunity to also be out near the outdoors. Kathy: And affordability. We've taken investors from California on buses and driven them through Ohio and Georgia and Tennessee and these areas where home prices are so, so low. Being in California, some of the cars I see on the road are [laughs] more expensive than these houses-- not anymore but it was. We saw a lot of California members go on these tours and buy investment property but they also moved because when you live somewhere, you don't have to be there all the time. We have friends who [00:10:00] actually work in San Francisco, big tech guy, but he wanted to live in San Diego. San Diego, believe it or not, was much cheaper than San Francisco. He moved his family to San Diego. He'd fly every morning, a Monday morning spend a few days in San Francisco. He'd get Friday off to work remotely. He begun Monday through Thursday, go back to San Diego to live. I think we might see more of that, of people living where they want, and then just going into where if they need to go in the office going in a couple of days a week. Frank: Absolutely. I agree with that, Kathy. We've really seen a shift here during the course of the pandemic and I think some of that's going to be permanent too. I'm really glad you mentioned affordability. Certainly, Marcus likes Cincinnati. That's one of the big attractions. That's an attraction in Riverside, San Bernardino, and some of the mountain communities and the Rocky Mountains, but also the center part of the United States. That's a big attraction of a lot of those cities, especially some of the older cities. They look a lot more affordable than a lot of the cities along the two coasts. Kathy: Now I'm hearing some people say that the cities are going to have a comeback because we know we obviously saw people leaving and going to the suburbs. There are investors who are still buying in the big cities and really believe that once things open up more people will come back. Do you agree with that? Frank: What's so interesting. It's a lot of the young people, the ones who are just entering the labor market, they're the ones who still want that excitement, that energy of being in the downtown city area, partly for cultural events, partly for socializing and things like that. The big change during the pandemic has been that for young people just coming out of school and starting their careers, they didn't need to go into the city. In fact, in a lot of places, they couldn't go into the city [laughs] because of the pandemic. [00:12:00] Many of them ended up staying at home and living with their parents rather than renting a house or an apartment with roommates or colleagues from college or from work or whatever. That was one of the reasons why we saw some weakness in rent and prices and some of these high costs downtown urban markets during the last year because the young people didn't come that normally they come when they graduate school and they start their jobs, they come into the center city, they want that activity, that social scene and all that. Well, they didn't, or they couldn't because of the pandemic. Now as the pandemic wanes, hopefully, it wanes, [laughs] continues to wane. As that happens, I think we'll see more of the young workers who are coming into the workplace, which that'd be the younger millennials and now the Gen Z as they're coming out of college, I think we'll see them return to the downtown, to the center city, to where the action is. We will see that, maybe not till next year, we'll see more of a resurgence back into the city, but I think that's where-- that'll be the leading edge that'll drive a comeback into the downtown area. Kathy: That makes sense. I do have some concerns about these cities that are starting to see these massive changes in home prices due to people coming in from other areas where suddenly everything looks cheap. For the locals now, everything looks expensive right there. The locals aren't going to be able to afford what's happening in their cities. What are your thoughts on that? Are they going to have to move out to another area that's cheaper? How's that going to work or they're just [00:14:00] going to be renters? Frank: Oh, I tell you that is a real challenge in a number of markets especially in some of these markets where they have a lot of additional outdoor amenities and are maybe attracting a lot of tech workers or other workers who really have that ability to work remotely longer term. When I look at some markets like Denver, like Salt Lake City, Boise, Dallas Austin, Texas, that's exactly what we've seen. We've seen a migration, especially some tech workers into these markets and they come with higher salaries, higher income, they're able to afford to buy a bigger home. They're able to outbid the locals who live in those communities, but don't have a tech jobs or not earning the same income, the same salaries as some of these workers who are moving into the metropolitan area are earning. As a consequence, that's pricing out some of the locals who have grown up in that marketplace and that they're finding it very challenging on the affordability dimension. It means that they may have to move further out or maybe they have to relocate to an area that's got a lower cost of living. Kathy: Well, Californians have been doing that to Oregon and to all the nearby states for a long time. I don't think the locals appreciate it unless they own real estate before [laughs] the Californians came, then they were happy. If they were trying to get into the market, it's been an issue for a long time, is that that big-city money spreads out? I am curious about apartments. You said that single-family home rents have gone up dramatically. What about apartments? Frank: Apartment are beginning to come back. It's so [00:16:00] interesting with consumers revealing their preferences for space and ultimately for structured time. What we saw in 2020, in the early parts of the pandemic, is that many tenants, but also people who were buying homes, they had a distinct preference for single-family detached housing because the more living area inside the home, and you got some green space around the home. If they couldn't afford a single-family detached, the next preference was single-family attached. The townhomes, condos, row houses. Least favorite was high-rise apartment buildings or rental, or for sale condominiums as well. That was the structure type that was least in favor. An in-between single-family attached and the high rise apartment buildings was the low rise garden-style apartments in suburban neighborhoods. That was in favor as well, a bit more favor than high-rise apartment buildings and less favor than single-family detached. When we look across that spectrum of structured type single-family detached, big demand, double-digit home price growth over the last year. In fact, in our latest CoreLogic home price index for single-family detached through the month of May, we recorded 17% appreciation in one year in our national index for single-family detached. Single-family attached, doing pretty well, we measured about 9% appreciation, but you can see that difference between 9% and 17%, a real revealing strong preference for detached housing. Some of the weakest valuation performance, if we were looking at first quarter of 2020 pre-pandemic to first quarter of [00:18:00] 2021 was for a high-rise multi-family rental buildings in downtown markets. Their prices were kind of flat to down a bit. Now, in the latest data through the second quarter, we're beginning to see some improvement. The apartment market has really picked up even for the multifamily properties in downtown areas. Comparing Q2 to Q2, and again, Q2 2020 was a lousy quarter [laughs] for the housing market. If we compare Q2 2020, first quarter of the pandemic to second quarter of 2021, we have seen a pickup in demand and activity even in high-rise buildings. Again, a real shift in consumer preferences for single-family detached, next for single-family attached, next for garden-style apartments and suburban communities, and then least for high-rise apartment buildings in the urban core. Kathy: Which must be why so many institutional funds are really looking at the build-to-rent scenario that build-to-rent communities where people can live in a single-family home, community horizontal apartment, basically. Do you think there could be overbuilding in that sector? Frank: It's a little too early to tell. I don't think so. I think there's going to be a good degree of appetite for a single-family rental homes going forward. Partly because of the work remotely. Partly, because of some lingering or concerns about the pandemic. I think we're going to see some pretty strong demand for single-family rental in the next couple of years, for sure. I'm not worried about overbuilding in that build-to-rent scheme. I think that's actually a really good [00:20:00] opportunity for investors and builders to develop that market further. Kathy: Is there any asset class that's been overbuilt in your opinion at this point? Frank: In residential? Kathy: Just in general. I mean-- Frank: I have some concerns on the non-residential space because one thing we've seen with the pandemic is some question about, "Well, how much office space will we need longer-term especially if a large number of workers continue to work remotely either full-time or in some type of hybrid model?" With a hybrid model, we may see even greater use of the hoteling option in an office environment, again, to use the space much more productively. We also may see some curtailing of need for office space among companies just because of that working remotely. Of course, the retail sector is a big question mark, especially given the pandemic and the growth of online sales. I think a lot of consumers really accelerated their use of online shopping and got used to it. Some people come back to the stores absolutely but I think that might be something where the return to in-person shopping to the extent that we had it pre-pandemic, I think that'll be much slower to come back if it does come back to that level. The warehouse is doing great. Kathy: Yeah, right. Frank: Industrial space is doing great and that's partly because of all the online purchasing and that's really supported the [00:22:00] warehouse sector so [inaudible 00:22:04] are up very strongly there. Kathy: It just seems like there's so much negative news about last year 2020 it was a tough year. There was also a lot of really big positive changes that I think could come from it long term. Another is just realizing that in the past, people used to come to the office sick, they'd take some Sudafed to cover it up, they didn't want to take a sick day, they wanted to go on a vacation instead. Then the whole office would get sick and productivity would go down. Now it wouldn't be so terrible to say, "Hey, I'm sick, can I work from home, not spread it. I'll be just as effective." It just seems like people didn't really get sick as much. I didn't get a cold or you know the things that you normally get over the winter because we were all just isolated. Frank: I tell you, it's so true, Kathy, that was the case for me as well. I didn't get sick at all this past winter and usually, I come down with something and partly because I'm on the road traveling [crosstalk] different events and meeting with clients and industry groups but everything was virtual. I stayed home and I had a healthier winter as a result. I think that's a really good point about how it could have positive effects for productivity because people are staying a little healthier too. Kathy: Then just like anything, when we have change, there's opportunity and that's what we need to focus on. Not look at what we're losing so much as what we're gaining. My daughter is only 28 years old and she's got an email marketing business and it has just absolutely exploded because more and more companies are realizing they can sell online. They don't need that retail space. They don't need all those salespeople standing around asking people if they need help and the people that walk in the store don't want help. [00:24:00] Now, you can just go online. There's going to be a lot of opportunity, a lot of new jobs that just didn't exist before. There's exciting times but the big question that I think I know our audience has is, what does the future look like? That's hard to predict but when you've got access to the kind of data you have, you might have an idea where that's headed. Let's talk inflation. Is the supply-demand imbalance enough that it will last over the next few years or could that wane? Frank: I think the increase that we've seen in inflation and the broad inflation metrics is just temporary. We've got a lot of supply chain bottlenecks that are causing disruptions and that's adding to why we're seeing a spike in prices on lots of different goods. When we look at the housing market, one of the big issues is the big spike and lumber costs and other materials but especially lumber. Some of the shortages and delays in getting appliances and other tech equipment that builders would like to put into homes. That's all part of that supply chain disruption that's contributing to these delays- contributing to the delays but also adding the costs of building new homes. I think that's probably going to be temporary and still temporary. It means it could last for a few more months. As we get toward the end of this year, I think we'll see some of those supply chain disruptions wane. We'll see inflation measures start to come down once again. Longer-term, I'm thinking we're probably going to see, at the high side, two and a half percent annual inflation in the out years. Out years would be [00:26:00] 2022-2023-2024. I do think we'll return to that level. Now, that's kind of like the upper bound range that the federal reserve says it's comfortable with. If we return back to that level, I think the fed will continue to keep a very accommodative monetary policy which is just fancy language for keeping low-interest rates. If we do see inflation remain elevated for a longer period of time, there's no question the fed's going to have to clamp down and push up interest rates more quickly than they had planned and probably to a higher level than it had planned. Kathy: That's been the debate. There's so many people that want the clicks online so they start with negative news. The fed is saying that it's transitory right? That this inflation is transitory, it won't be forever. We'll see. Frank: That's what the fed is saying. Kathy: That's what the fed is saying but it also has never printed so much money in one year. It seems that whenever that happens that extra money ends up in stocks and real estate. Even if inflation across the board starts to level out, will it in stocks and real estate? I don't know. Frank: We're expecting home prices to continue rising. As you know they've been cooking pretty good double-digit annual increase our national CoreLogic home price index recorded a 15% increase in prices in May compared to the prior May. I think we're going to see real big-time double-digit home price growth numbers on an annual basis. Not only through the end of the summer but into the fall. Then we'll start to see gradual moderation in home [00:28:00] price growth. A moderation, not a decline in home prices but in moderation. Right now, we're expecting about 5% home price growth in our CoreLogic US index for 2022. That's a lot slower than today but it's still pretty good and still better than inflation. I'll tell you why we're expecting a moderation in-home price growth. It's basically two factors, it comes back to demand and supply. Mortgage rates which are record low right now, I do think they'll creep up and be a little bit higher as we get into 2022, maybe a quarter-point, maybe half a point. That will choke off some of the demand and affordability pressures because with home prices rising even higher over the next several months that's just going to make it very challenging for anyone who's been in the market shopping for a home to be able to afford the down payment, closing costs, as well as monthly payment. Between mortgage rates going a little higher and home prices going up impacting affordability, we'll see a moderation in demand. On the supply side, as the pandemic wanes, I think we'll see more homeowners being receptive to listing their home for sale. Here's an interesting factoid Kathy, the median age of an owner-occupant in the US, in a single-family home, 57 years of age. That means you know basically half of the owner-occupants are baby boomers. We know that the older population was much more at risk from the pandemic virus and as a consequence, many of those baby boomers who otherwise had been planning to list their home [00:30:00] and sale, either to downsize or maybe to relocate maybe to their retirement home, their second home or close to grandkids or whatever it may be. Many of them said, "Whoa, I'm not going to list in the middle of a pandemic, I'll wait. I'll postpone my listing until the pandemic is over." I think that's what has happened over the last 12, 15 months for that cohort. They may have been ready to sell but they said, "Whoop, I'm postponing until the pandemic is over." I got my fingers crossed but I'm hoping that when we get to 2022, pandemic will be in the history books and a lot of these older homeowners they will come on the market, list their home for sale and we'll see and increase in existing home inventory. I also think that with some of the supply bottlenecks being worked through that we're going to see more single-family home construction in early 2022. We'll see more of inventory response, more supply in the market, a little bit less demand. That's what translates into slowing of home price growth in 2022. Kathy: No home price crash in sight? Frank: No, I don't see a crash, no. That's not to say that there might be some packets, some communities, some urban markets that will see home price decline probably related to local economic conditions. Overall, in terms of the national scope, I don't see any price declines. The market is very different this time around compared to what we had seen in the last time during a great recession when prices fell. It's a very different market. Our market today is under built in terms of the housing market with low vacancy rates. Back in 2006, we had an over-built [00:32:00] housing market with high vacancy rate. It's really very different marketplace that way. It's very different too in terms of housing finance, mortgages. Back in 2006, we had all those high-risk mortgages, sub-prime, no doc loans. They're all absent from the marketplace today. Today, we have very prudent sound underwriting guidelines. That's an important difference as well. Kathy: All right. Well, Frank, it has been a really, again an honor to have you here. Thank you so much for sharing all your great wisdom. Frank: Thanks so much for having me today, Kathy. Kathy: All right. I think that was all the questions. Anything that you would say that you didn't? Frank: Yes, I think it's a good opportunity for investors who are looking to buying into residential market. I'll mention one thing, we've got a report coming out shortly on a single-family investors in the marketplace. What's so interesting during the course of 2020 was that the number of single-family homeowners bought by investors as a percent share of total sales actually was down compared to 2019. It was down because the number of first-time buyers who participated in the market in 2020 was up so much. We look at just the total number of homes bought by single-family investors in 2020. That was about the same in 2019. The [unintelligible 00:33:37] steady but that's a percent of total homes bought, it actually came down in 2020 in part because the first time home buyers and some Gen X'ers who were looking to trade up coming into the marketplace during 2020. It's also interesting if you look at it over the course of 2020. Strong investor activity in the first quarter [00:34:00] boom, pandemic hits, eviction moratorium go into place. Investors pulled back from the home purchase market in the second quarter of 2020, not knowing how the economy was going to shake out, what the federal government's response was going to be. They pulled back a bit but as the economy started to rebound pretty quickly by the end of the year, single-family investors were back in the market looking to buy homes. That's continued here in 2021. Kathy: Yes absolutely. One last thing. I've heard economists, I think Doug Duncan at Fannie Mae said there's a shortage of five million homes or eight million homes and there was another report saying we would need to build two million homes a year for the next 10 years to keep up with demand. Do you agree with that given what you said about certain people putting their house on the market maybe? I don't know, do you agree with that sentiment? Frank: I do think we have an under-built market and it really depends on the part of the country that you are looking at. For many decades now, for a long time the population in the United States, most of the growth has been in the South and in the West. For example, the latest data from the Census Bureau shows that the State with the largest net population gain in the past year was Texas and Texas has been top of the charts in terms of net population gain for the last several years, it's nothing new. Number one is Texas, number two is Florida, number three is Arizona. Those have been States that have been registering big population gains for a while, not just last year but for many, many years. I think those trends are going to continue in general for this Southern part of the US and the Western part of the US. [00:36:00] So that's in particular where we need to see more building of homes in order to meet that demand increase. When I look across different market, one market that's just booming is Phoenix. Home prices are up in Phoenix at a double-digit pace over the last year. Interesting, single-family rents in Phoenix are up at double-digit pace over the last year too. That's from Corelogic single-family rent index. That's a market that there's a lot of demand, a lot of population moving there and a lot of building going on. We need more building there as well. I do agree with the studies that have come out that conclude that the market is under-built right now. We do need to have more housing built and in particular, we need more housing built where people are moving too in those locations where there's much more population growth. Kathy: Sure. How can investors learn more from you and CoreLogic? What are your services? Frank: We've got a lot of information we put up on our website corelogic.com. Look for our intelligence pages. On the intelligence web page, we've got our recurring blogs that I and my team members write that provide our latest insights and trends on the housing and mortgage market. Also, include our reports that we put out. CoreLogic has a lot of data and products that we release such as the home price index that I've mentioned, the single-family rent index, our report on loan performance indicators such [00:38:00] as delinquency and foreclosure rate. Of course, we produce the Case-Shiller Home Price Index as well. Those are some of the recurring reports that go up there. We have a home equity report that we do once a quarter. We'll have a new home equity report coming out soon. Of course, with double-digit home price growth that means home equity wealth is rising at a pretty good clip as well. Kathy: I don't know if you know this but I got to debate Robert Shiller on Fox News in 2012 and it was very interesting because at the time, he thought it was maybe not a great to-- the headline was- his side of the debate was, it's not a great time to buy and my side was, "What do you mean? Home price have hit bottom and interest rates are low, it's the best time ever." By the end of that interview, he agreed with me. I'm going to say I won that debate. That was really fun. All right was such a pleasure to have you here on the Real Wealth Show, hope to have you back soon with more great news about what's happening in 2022. Frank: Sure, thanks for having, Kathy. Kathy: Thank you for joining us here on the Real Wealth Show. If you would like to get a little bit more data on different markets around the country that are seeing double-digit growth both in prices and rents and where there's still great opportunity to get cash flow and appreciation, you can visit realwealthshow.com for the list of cities where we have teams that find the properties, renovate them to rent condition or better and also offer ongoing property management. Many of these teams also build brand new homes for investors to buy as rental properties to meet that strong, strong demand for our rental property across the country and to help investors create an ongoing passive income for retirement. Again, at realwealthshow.com, get a list of the cities and a list of teams in those markets who can help you find rental [00:40:00] property. You'll also get referrals to insurance companies, mortgage brokers, 1031 exchange people. All kinds of resources for investors at realwealthshow.com. I'm Kathy Fettke, thanks for joining me today, we'll see you next time. Operator: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are provided for informational purposes only and should not be construed as an offer to buy or sell any securities or to make or consider any investment or course of action. For more information go to realwealthshow.com.