The Tim Ferriss Show by Tim Ferriss: Bestselling Author, Human Guinea Pig

August 06, 2025 #821: My Two-Year Secret Project, COYOTE — The Strategies and Tactics for Building a Bestseller from Nothing with Elan Lee of Exploding Kittens

This is a very special episode for me. My brand-new card game, COYOTE, created in collaboration with Elan Lee and Exploding Kittens, is here. It is available in ~8,000 locations worldwide, including Walmart, Target, Amazon, and many others. Learn more: https://coyotegame.com.

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Timestamps:

[00:00:00] Start.

[00:05:21] Coyote: a game 47 years in the making.

[00:08:41] Who is Elan Lee?

[00:09:37] How our motivations behind game creation intersect.

[00:12:41] The nutshell view of pitching a game to a retailer.

[00:14:40] Salesmanship is a learnable skill, but Elan’s a natural.

[00:15:53] Why I’ve always wanted to make my own game and how development began in earnest.

[00:26:00] First contact with Elan and our fast-forged, fun-focused friendship.

[00:32:28] The Hanabi and Rock, Paper, Scissors-inspired Toronto trip breakthrough.

[00:39:40] Early prototyping and testing.

[00:45:34] The Zero Effect.

[00:47:37] Recommended game design rationales, resources, and reading.

[00:53:00] The beginner’s mind approach to writing effective game instructions.

[00:56:26] A simple fact: less complication = more fun.

[00:57:49] Cooperative vs. competitive play.

[00:58:24] Leveling the playing field with attack cards and sabotage mechanics.

[01:01:34] Tricking people into cognitively bettering themselves by gaming.

[01:08:04] Finding the sweet spot.

[01:10:44] It takes a lot of work to make a game effortlessly fun.

[01:13:40] How many games does Exploding Kittens publish per year?

[01:14:36] Exploding Kittens’ number-one seller was designed by Elan’s four-year-old daughter.

[01:18:30] Prototypes and pitching.

[01:22:26] Improving on the industry’s fundamentally flawed testing procedure.

[01:24:58] Analyzing passing/failure with play testers’ video and feedback.

[01:28:41] Risks of internal testing.

[01:31:47] Coyote’s first positive signs from the wild.

[01:34:22] Online vs. physical store sales and tweaking variables to gauge market interest.

[01:41:22] What a successful line review looks like.

[01:43:51] Line review hoops through which lesser-proven companies have to hop.

[01:48:04] Elan’s field-tested line review meeting strategies.

[01:54:15] The importance of finding proper agent representation.

[01:59:35] In modern marketing, social media (especially short-form video) is king.

[02:04:48] The best and worst ways for an aspiring designer to sell a game.

[02:13:05] Crowdfunding pros and cons, and Kickstarter alternatives.

[02:19:57] Dealing with deal terms.

[02:23:56] The Exploding Kittens attitude toward rare partnerships.

[02:25:45] The types of games that capture Elan’s attention.

[02:27:40] Common game design mistakes.

[02:29:49] How we tried to avoid these mistakes when packaging Coyote.

[02:33:55] Self-publishing vs. conventional publishing.

[02:38:40] Business considerations and risks.

[02:44:59] Parting thoughts and a tantalizing offer.

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Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, Margaret Atwood, Mark Zuckerberg, Peter Thiel, Dr. Gabor Maté, Anne Lamott, Sarah Silverman, Dr. Andrew Huberman, and many more.