She is a doyenne of Indian feminism, a poet, author, feminist and development activist. She is also the South Asia co-ordinator for ‘One Billion Rising’. So, I was thrilled and honoured to have Kamla Bhasin as a guest on my podcast. The most important takeaway for me was the power of alliances local and global to address inequalities in society/the world. Also, that it takes more than legislation to bring about social change.

In this episode we speak about her journey to conscious feminism 👇🏾

👉🏾 The interconnectedness between the feminist and development agenda: women’s rights, human rights and rights of Dalits

👉🏾 The Indian feminist struggle, challenging the idea that the Indian feminist movement found its inspiration in the West

👉🏾 Whether caste=race and if violence against women should be framed within the caste lens, the enablers of caste inequities in society

👉🏾 Patriarchy in culture and society and her views on capitalism as an agent of patriarchy 

👉🏾 One Billion Rising - a powerful global campaign

👉🏾 Intersectionality and feminism that transcends borders, class and other binary social divisions

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Memorable Quotes

👉🏾 In that work. I understood all the inequalities. There were caste inequality, class inequality, education inequality and of course, man, woman, girl, boy inequality. The wells, which had water were always the wells on which so-called lower caste people were not allowed to step. If government scheme came, it would all go to the Sarpanches relations etc, and never do the Dalit group. And then I realised that amongst the poor. Women were poorer. Among the Dalits women were more Dalits, among the Adivasis they were more Adivasi. Slowly I became a conscious feminist. 

👉🏾 So for me, it was not either be feminist or a development activist, because I think these are all interrelated things. And human rights are related to women's rights, they are related to Dalit rights. First of all I really don't think that there is any Indian feminist story or western feminist story. Which West? The black West or the white West, the minority West, or the majority west. Similarly in India, which feminists? So most of all, I want to say that feminism is not one, there are feminisms. And in the larger women's movement, there are many, many strands. So, for example, in so-called Western feminism, the black women told the white women that your feminism is only about white women. We are not included and they were not included because feminism was only about gender inequality for the white. But the black woman wanted gender and race.

👉🏾 Similarly in India. The Dalit women, they told us that why do you never talk of caste, why are you only talking of patriarchy? So, there are many kinds of feminists. Now feminists, who for me are women and men. Feminism for me is not biological. So women can be patriarchal and feminist. Similarly, men are patriarchal and some men are also feminist and have always been. So feminism is a response to patriarchy. We have taken our constitution seriously. And the constitution says men and women are equal, all the caste are equal, all religions are equal. I believe whatever I'm doing for the last 50 years now is to implement my constitution, to implement the universal declaration of human rights. Nothing else! 

👉🏾 But, has my constitution given me equal rights, they have just written about them. We may not have a history of these feminist struggles because of colonialism, because of white supremacy and because of brahamanical supremacy. We only have history of some feminists and some struggles. And then we start feminism from last time, last century or century before that from America and say feminism started there. 

👉🏾 What is violence against women? Man, who's more powerful doing violence. If with that patriarchal violence, you have the power of the boss also, so he is doubly powerful. Violence against women is in homes like yours and in homes like mine. I personally sometimes think that middle class women face more violence, but they don't talk about it. Adivasi women are much freer, she'll talk about it, she leaves because she is economically more independent than middle-class housewives. So yes, many times violence against women is related to caste. These are power systems and when two power hierarchies come together, it becomes easier to do violence. Caste and race are the same. Caste activists, Dalit activists have always said that it is like race, but it is not exactly race because race is based on colour. This is based on a Hindu system of tasks, but they're both by birth. They're both nurtured in the same way.

👉🏾 Our constitution said, India will not follow a caste system. It should have disappeared, We are not just a Hindu society, but Hindu caste system has made an entry into Indian Christianity, into Indian Islam. It has made an entry even into Sikhism which was anti-caste because all these religions who became Sikh and Christian and Muslim? Mainly lower caste Hindus who were not finding respect in their own religion. But, people never forgot, people didn't forget they still remember after hundreds of years. So this is what I feel and I feel very, very sad that these hierarchies are continuing, but I'm not surprised.

👉🏾 Manu has been talked by Periyar and has been talked Baba Saheb Ambedkar. I mean the anti-caste movement in the South has talked about all this. As you said, patriarchy is in every society. And I think all religions are patriarchal. All of them are male created, male dominated, male interpreted, male imposed religions, each one of them. And definitely Manusmriti was written at the time to strengthen patriarchy and to strengthen the caste system.

👉🏾 So obviously, I think to bring Manu into running the present society is pathetic. And so both sides are bringing the scriptures? It's not just the critics of Manu who are bringing the scriptures. I mean, maybe not be surprised, but in the Rajasthan high court, there is a statue of Manu there and people the Anti caste people have been saying for decades, please remove it. You know, like, and in Europe now they're taking down the statues of racist leaders. I don't look at India as a Hindu country because India is a multi-religious country. Everybody in India does not follow one Manu. I mean the Sikhs don’t and the Christians don't but they follow their own Manu. Each religion has its own Manu. I find all the religions are problematic and we need to finally make up our mind someday as to our constitution. Or are we with these things which were said 4,000 years ago. 

👉🏾 I'm not a philosopher but has capitalism worked. You said socialism hasn't worked, communism hasn't worked, but do you think capitalism has worked and for whom has it worked and has it worked for Africa? Has it worked for 70% of Indians? Has it worked for the black Americans? And has it worked for planet earth? Has it worked for mother nature? I mean, USA, should have been that society where inequality should have disappeared, where there should have been help for all, but look at COVID-19 in the USA and the tiny country Cuba next to the USA, sending help out all over the world and sending doctors all over the world. And to say You know, communism hasn't worked socialism, hasn't worked. And again, look at Scandinavia. So the image one has is that societies should not be greed based. Dog eat dog kind of competition-based, individualism based, you know social welfare, welfare economics, those kinds of things. 

👉🏾 I mean, I think a Scandinavia has shown us the way we can go that way. And I think the recent catastrophes in the USA of all kinds, including during COVID-19 show us, and it is good to see that in a country like the UK people are now perhaps understanding the importance of national health services. Even the conservative sitting there. And so that, just the kind of thing we have in mind, but in fact, looking at the climate change scenario, the old socialism. Which did not talk of climate, which did not talk of a lot. And which taught human beings went on top of nature. I think today, ecologism, ecology, and socialism and welfare, etc and feminism and Anti-caste anti-race kind of things. All of these isms need to come together, make alliances and think of an alternative society. And I think theoretically, all this is happening. I mean, people have been talking about it for a long time. What needs to be done? People who are greed based, people mean even doing COVID-19 their profits have soared. All these companies have made money. So I really don't think capitalism has worked for the majority and the marriage. That's a horrible marriage between capitalism and patriarchy. 

👉🏾 1 billion rising started in 2012. Thought of originally by one woman called Eve Ensler, you might've heard of her play the ‘Vagina Monologues’. And in 2012 world health organisation came up with a report saying in the world globally, out of every three women, one woman faces violence at some time in her life, out of three women, one woman, which means out of a population of 7 billion people, three-and-a-half billion are women, out of that, one-third more than a billion women and girls face. Is there a war bigger than this? Where does this war take place most of all? Within, the family particularly in India. Where is this violence maximum? Where do we kill daughters in the womb? Where do we kill them for dowry? Where do we starve them? Within the family! So when Eve Ensler called me up and said, Kamala let's start something called 1 Billion Rising. And I said, yes. We just had to contact our feminist friends all over the world and we had feminist friends. I knew you, you knew her, you knew him. And within about nine months, we managed to do 1 billion, rising into 107 countries. And what was the slogan, “strike” meaning hit out at violence, “dance and rise” rise like the waves of the ocean. So people said, why dance? Especially in South Asia. And we said dance because you are not rising as victims anymore. We are rising as survivors. We will not only dance, we will sing and we will shout slogans.

👉🏾 I think you can see how this is becoming a reality. For example, we wanted women to be together and then the Dalit woman says, listen, I'm not just a woman and you are not just a woman. You are an upper caste woman. And I'm a lower caste. And if I was working with poor women, they said, you are not just a woman who had an upper class woman. And I'm a working class woman. So if you want women to be together, then you have to think of our struggles. So if you are Sudha, look at Indian feminism, right from the beginning with whom we were working, we were working with basti women, with poor women. In any case middle-class, women will not allow us into their homes. They're not willing to give up patriarchy because patriarchy is bringing their class status to them. An upper middle class woman will not leave her husband, because with her husband her car will go and her fancy house will go. And status and kitty parties, jewellery will go. 

👉🏾 So in India, we have always worked with women from the working classes, working caste and made alliances with them with indigenous women. So I feel for example, in the last 10 years with LGBTQ people to some extent these alliances are coming up. But sometimes they also divide us because today everybody wants their rights. I have a severely handicapped son, he's 40 years old. And as a 74 year old mother, I can't look after him alone. And because of my class, I have people looking after him. So am I a feminist, even with those people who look after my son, do I take care of them? So I think we need these alliances if we want our movements to be bigger. Identity politics divides us. But can I tell a Dalit women don’t talk of caste, can the white women in the US tell the black women don't talk of race. So I see that intersectionality is absolutely essential and these alliances have to be made. But I feel that ultimately it is poor vs rich. And I think if the poor have to unite, alliances are necessary. If the women have to get anywhere alliances are necessary. 

👉🏾 First of all what is that definition of activism? I mean, from your question, I assume, you think only people who want to win rights for all in development for all are activists, but we are not the only activists. I think capitalism today has more activists than human rights activists. Mr. Trump has his activists, the right wing party has activists, the labour party has its activists. So what is activism? So I think activism is very active, but they are active for their own goals. People like me want the constitution of India to be implemented. Only human rights activism might seem at the periphery because our governments are becoming anti-human rights, because of the power of the people who control the digital world and the data. Who's controlling that. I know that young people, at least in India, haven't given up activism. And if young people like Greta Thunberg in Sweden can become an activist and Malala from Pakistan, the youngest, Nobel Peace Laureate. I will not insult the young people of today, but the thing is that this greed based neoliberalism has proven to be very, very powerful. 

Biography Kamla Bhasin

Kamla Bhasin is a social scientist, author, poet, development feminist, and activist. She has worked on several subjects like gender equality, education, poverty alleviation, human rights and peace in South Asia since 1970. She is also part of SANGAT, a South Asian Feminist network and an active member of JAGORI, a women’s resource and training centre. In 1979, she began with the Food and Agricultural Organisation for their Freedom from Hunger campaign in New Delhi and worked for empowerment of rural and urban poor. She has written extensively on patriarchy and gender. Her published works include Laughing Matters, Exploring Masculinity, Borders & Boundaries: Women in India’s Partition, What Is Patriarchy and Feminism and its Relevance in South Asia. In her literary work and her activism, she envisions a feminist movement that transcends class, borders, and other social and political divisions.

Important Links

https://www.onebillionrising.org/about/campaign/one-billion-rising/

https://indianexpress.com/article/parenting/learning/gender-no-two-boys-girls-are-alike-author-kamla-bhasin-satrangi-ladke-and-satrangi-ladkiyan-6420312/

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2020/07/01/about-46-crore-females-missing-in-india-due-to-son-preference-unfpa-report.html

https://feminisminindia.com/2020/09/17/faith-religion-patriarchy-feminism-webinar-sangat/

https://feminisminindia.com/2020/10/01/kamla-bhasin-sangat-radical-love/

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/nashik/democracy-in-india-political-only-not-social-kamla-bhasin/articleshow/72892803.cms

https://www.timesnownews.com/mirror-now/in-focus/article/we-not-only-need-women-candidates-we-feminist-women-in-the-parliament-in-conversation-with-kamla-bhasin/406195