In this conversation Ben speaks to David Kadavy, host of the “Love Your Work” podcast and best-selling author of The Heart to Start and Design for Hackers.

A deep and often lateral thinker about work, David is profoundly self-aware of how the cultural programming he experienced growing up conditioned his attitudes towards work. In their conversation, he shares with Ben the steps he took and the challenges he faced in overcoming these mental barriers, as well as the systems-based approach he now uses to identify productive avenues of new, creative work.

They discuss the importance of randomness, of overcoming our fear of failure, and of identifying and embracing our innate curiosity in assessing our work. David also shares his own experience of how meditation can, and has for him, been an almost oxymoronically productive use of his time.