We'll just cut to the chase - this week sucked and the next four years are going to be very dark and very difficult.

But we're not here just to rage and doomcast. This Kelly and John were joined by fellow religion scholar Andrew Tobolowsky to try to provide some perspective on what's ahead, what the fight is going to be, the role Project 2025 will and won't play, and why the more likely challenge will be living through a chaotic nightmare as opposed to a Christian Nationalist dystopia.

Andrew is on BlueSky at @andytobo.bsky.social