These days, most of us have a pretty good handle on protecting the software our computers run from viruses and other types of malware. We’re careful about downloading and installing software from unknown, insecure sources, and run antivirus applications to help keep everything safe. But what about the system-level code that runs deep within the devices we rely on every day? What about the firmware?

Our guest today is Terry Dunlap. He’s CEO and co-founder of ReFirm Labs, a tech startup that’s focused on firmware — analyzing the code and helping manufacturers, organizations, and governments ensure their devices haven’t been compromised. He’s got a colorful history that includes teenage hacking, time at the NSA, and the founding of several companies.