Starting in 2003, years before anyone was using the term, Yu-kai Chou began developing what would become the Octalysis Framework: a model of human motivation built around 8 core drives that influence every decision we make. He gamified his own life first. Then his companies. Then Fortune 500s. Then governments.

Now he's one of the most sought-after behavioral designers on the planet. He's been to Ukraine (during the war) to advise on gamification strategies for the country. He's the author of Actionable Gamification and 10,000 Hours of Play, his reframe of Malcolm Gladwell's famous concept. His clients include Google, Duolingo, and national governments.

In this episode of Founders & Empanadas, we get into:

• Why he tells founders to "optimize for failure" and why it might be the most counterintuitive success strategy you'll hear

• The VC pattern he experienced 4-5 times: being called "crazy" and "stupid" before the world finally caught up

• Why older generations actually respond better to gamification than younger ones, and what that means for product design

• The dark side of gamification: how Black Hat mechanics tap into your survival instincts and trap users into addiction

• What 10,000 Hours of Play really means and how to apply it to your work and life right now

• What happens every time a big company acquires a startup and why it ends the same way almost every time

• How he went from a kid struggling in a Taiwanese school to advising the president of a country at war

Yu-kai is sharp, funny, and genuinely one of the most interesting people I've sat down with. This one will change how you think about your time.

🎙️ Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

📺 Watch on YouTube.