John and Elliot discuss American televangelist Jimmy Swaggart's public confession of sin in the late 1980s, exploring ideas around repentance, forgiveness, and redemption in the evangelical Christian tradition. This leads to a broader discussion of theological perspectives on Christ's crucifixion and sacrifice, different interpretations of its meaning and purpose, tensions within evangelicalism, and Elliot's personal faith journey and evolving views on these issues. Elliot shares some of his own experiences in ministry and how wrestling with difficult questions ultimately gave him a greater appreciation for the gospel message, while John struggles to understand why ideas like incarnation and crucifixion are necessary for humans to be reconciled with God.

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