Shownotes

After the initial high of 2020/21 DEIB/A or whatever you would like to call it, is facing rough going - budgets are being cut, dedicated DEI staff are being sacked or are leaving in droves. Organisations are using the cost of living crisis and economic slowdown as an excuse which doesn’t really make sense - are they easily expendable? What has not helped is that people have mistaken the high volume of talk(chatter) for action, all that virtue signalling and diversity washing has resulted in conversation overload and fatigue.

I recently interviewed Barbara Philips Chair of the Race and Ethnicity Equity Board (REEB) PRCA about the state of representation of the the ‘global majority’ (Black and ethnic minorities in common parlance) in the C-suite and in Boardrooms in our industry The first question I asked Barbara was if like the ‘State of the Nation’ report (social mobility), we should have a state of Board Representation in the UK and the rest of the world? And if it is time to hold companies accountable through transparency on data for progress or lack of - because data doesn’t lie (Actually it does occasionally when it is used selectively for greenwashing).

Fortunately, in 2023 no one is contesting the reality. The more important question now is how do we increase representation especially considering the industry’s reputation for homophily (birds of a feather etc.) on one side and the broken rung, or the glass ceiling that talent groups from global majority constantly have to face. And the absolute reality that we are not promoting nor nurturing enough leaders through the ranks. 

At REEB we are determined to spotlight the vacuum, the lack of opportunities for talented leaders and the absence of creativity and imagination by the industry on how it can engage and nurture talent who can rightly take their seat at the high table or in the boardroom. 

We also spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 Why Board representation is a focus area for REEB

👉🏾 Barriers for board representation/C-suite for Black and global majority 

👉🏾 Why senior opportunities continue to elude talented global majority talent. Why are talent leaders and recruiters unable to engage with this untapped potential? 

👉🏾 Shadow Boards: It was a resounding ‘No’ from Barbara

👉🏾 Steps organisations can take to get on the journey

We also spoke about role models and there is a call to action for the PR Industry. 

For an industry that aspires to have a seat in the Board Room and the ear of senior leadership - it is perhaps time to change the narrative, move away from ‘spin’ and take action for change…….

Episode Transcript

Sudha: Good afternoon, Barbara. Wonderful to have you here today, and we're going to be discussing something that is very, very close to both your heart and my heart. And this is about senior representation, representation at the leadership level, board level representation for black and ethnic minority talent within our industry, and of course beyond, but let's limit our ambit to the PR industry at this point in time. To get started with the first question, like the state of the nation report, which talks about social mobility and looks at tracking social mobility in different ways now, rather than just looking at the number of people who've gotten into jobs, do you believe we should have a state of board representation in the UK and probably the rest of the world? 

Barbara: Absolutely. I mean I've got a couple of theories on that. I think that the CBI as it was before, I mean we can't talk about it now 'cause that's another place. But the CBI as it was before, they really should have taken up the mantel and the London Chamber of Commerce and Industry and there's all of those regional boards, they should have taken up the mantle but clearly, , they didn't. And then we had the McGregor report in 2017 which actually says exactly this, there should be looking at ethnicity pay gaps and looking at board representation. So it's all been there so people just don't want to take up the mantle. So I'm absolutely for this kind of state of the...... whether it's in another report or one on its own, it absolutely should be there 'cause people need to know the stark reality, of what our boards look like, which are kind of male, stale and pale, which they have been forever. 

Barbara: And then this whole piece about representation, I'm interested to know what it is we want represented, 'cause let's not pretend we just want some brown faces. Because we have to look at our government, don't we? We have to look at our government over the last few years. We have lots of lovely brown faces, but their politics are really not helping the majority, they're not helping society, they're helping a small elite. So when we say board representation, we don't just mean brown faces, meaning people who have the proper ethos to help change things, move things forward, not take on some people with brown faces who are keeping the status quo, who are gatekeepers, which is what's happened with the government, essentially.

Barbara: So, it's two areas. One, it could have been taken up by any number of organisations and two, let's make sure it's not just some shiny faces on the front of your recruitment catalog. It really is people who are gonna push things forward and make changes, and if you're going to recruit people from the global majority, those are the ones that you really should be looking for, not ones to keep the status quo. 

Sudha: So you've also answered a part of my second question, which is, why is board representation an area of focus for REEB? Clearly, what we've seen in our society, in government, they've left a lot to be desired, it is about people who believe in their politics. So it's not necessarily people who believe in equity and inclusion for all. 

Barbara: Because 

Sudha: people who believe in continuing the privileges of the classes that are continuing to govern and rule over the country. 

Barbara: Exactly. 

Sudha: Yeah, but do you think board representation or senior leadership is critical also from a point of view for people, for our next generation, for the cohorts that are coming in to see more role models? 

Barbara: Absolutely I do. Because ultimately, not only REEB but I think every decent human being wants to go and work in an inclusive culture that's acceptable, that's accepting rather, it's psychologically safe. And we know all white boards who have had the reins forever, they've had the power, but they can't seem to make boards and environments and cultures safe for everybody. So, absolutely, I think it's really important. I looked at some figures on the National Census from 2021, and that put the 46.2% of the population in London, this is for London particularly, are black, Asian, mixed, and others - their term. And also it said that the urban areas, around the country, but specifically London has the sort of median age of 25 to 29. Now, what that's saying to me is that's a talent pool,. And I'm just using London as an example because I didn't go through all of the major cities, but if that is your talent pool okay? If that's where you are going to get your future talent from, if you're blocking those people. 

Barbara: One, when they come into your organisation, they're not seeing themselves, so it isn't psychologically safe and it isn't inclusive. But two, that is the future. I think people will just need to get used to the idea that the future C-Suite isn't going to look like them and I know a lot of people struggle with that, even today they're struggling with it, it's not going to look like me, it's going to come from another quarter. And I think this is how our industry, having that board representation, having that pathway clear is how our industry stays relevant. I mean, the world changes, societies' changes, so does the talent pool and unless the leaders now give opportunities to people who don't look like them, who are different, , they're gonna be dinosaurs. It's going to be a huge risk, and they're going to literally wither and die because people won't do business with them. I mean, it's kind of a sustainability piece, but it's a risk as well. Absolutely, that's why it's so important. 

Sudha: Yeah, absolutely. I think organisations have to look at it from a business risk and resilience point of view. I mean, your consumers want it, your employees want it, and your employees are going to be different, your consumers are different already. And they are seeking more inclusive workplaces. So that's very, very critical. 

I'll combine two questions into one and ask you this one. According to you, what are the key barriers for board representation - a C-suite for black and the global majority. You and I are well aware that there's no dearth of leadership talent amongst these groups, However, senior opportunities continue to elude them. And if I give the example of me or of you, I stepped away very reluctantly a couple of years back because I just couldn't open any doors for myself and people did not see me as a senior leader, and I'm assuming it's the same for you? We step away because we don't have an option and because people are not giving us the choices. What are the barriers? So it's the recruiters, it's the leaders? Why are they not able to engage with people like us?

Barbara: Yeah. Well you're very kind and you're very benevolent to say, you're giving them the benefit of the doubt. Me, not so much. So I think, well let's start from the beginning; PR and comms in the UK, we know from the last PRCA census was about 16.8 billion pounds, it's a billion pound industry. 

Barbara: And the people with the power who are mainly white to mainly male, they don't feel they have to change. Why should they change? We've made all this money for ourselves, and we've made it this way, and the industry's been this successful with this kind of format and this system, so why do we have to change? And if you think about it, if you go back a little bit further, you think about British society and the British idea of capitalism, how was that wealth built? How was the empire built? It wasn't on having tea and crumpets with people around the world.

Barbara: So the fact that I think that people have subconsciously got used to. People are used to an elite group having masses of wealth and not having very many opportunities. So I think people are thinking, "well that's the lay of the land, why should we do anything different?" And that's the status quo, it's working for us. That also leads into opportunities, the top jobs for opportunities are just given to this small elite and that little elite likes it that way because they've got their little group and they've got their little clique and they like it that way. And that elite, this kind of, the components of the elite can be classism. So class, social mobility, which is part of it, which I really do think needs to be a protected characteristic now it's ridiculous. Because it's just so blatant, especially our economic systems right now, and then obviously the more obvious one of racism. If you're not ticking that box, you're just not getting in that club. They're just not letting you. So I think, in terms of barriers, it's desire. I've been saying desire since 2020. Remember, much of the things we experience in life is because somebody wants you to experience in that way. 

Barbara: That is why you're experiencing it, so let's not forget that. And then, there's this magical mystical pathway to the C-suite, which only white men seem to be able to find. Isn't it funny? No one else seems to be able to find it and that's because we have gatekeepers. As I described earlier, there's some pretty strong areas where people would just stop you dead, you've experienced it, I've experienced it. And it can be, not only your background, social mobility and race, it's universities, it's maybe the way you speak. And then for you to get to the C-suite, certainly in our industries, on this magical path, they expect you to have had worked on high profile clients and worked for big brands and led a huge team, maybe internationally, but of course we're not on that path. How do we get to do that? If you won't let me lead a big client or a big brand, how am I gonna have the experience so you can open the C-Suite to me? 

Barbara: It's so much gatekeeping and I don't think it's unconscious. I think it's absolutely consciously done because they like the little look of their club, who's in there and they don't want to let other people in. And those are the real blockages 'cause there's no other reason. If you look at who's going to university, it's completely mixed. In fact, the global majority are the majority of young people who graduate, it's just a nonsense, that means it's stopped, it's blocked somewhere, and I think the gatekeepers just need to open the gate and share their love. That's what they need to do because one day there won't be a gate. 

Barbara: There won't be a gate for them to keep and they will just be on the outside rather than on the inside. And as you spoke about earlier, it's a huge risk that they really need to think about, really do. 

Sudha: Absolutely. And yeah, I think our industry is also such that it's very cliquey, people know people and they know someone or the other in positions of power, and those people keep recommending each other? 

Barbara: Big circle, isn't it? 

Sudha: Circle of people within that and people who are outside are always going to remain outside. And how complicit are recruiters in this entire business? How much understanding do they have of the challenges? 

Barbara: Yeah. I've had some great recruiters but I've had more poor recruiters and I think that recruiters just need to grow a backbone. I think they need to try and draw themselves away from the commission 'cause it's all about the money and commission. 

Barbara: And I think they need to seize an opportunity to make a real impact on societal change, they really are in a position to do that and if they could just draw themselves away from just being the carrot is the commission then they could make so much good. I think the whole idea that they have to present a candidate in their own image, or the last candidate who fulfilled a role, let's just send another one of those along.

Barbara: I find it gutless and weak, and I tell you what, I think if you and I, Sudha, I know people who look like us can go into a job, an all white space every day, where we are ridiculed, where we face micro aggressions, where people are ghosting us, where people are just rude and ignoring us, and yet we go in, we do our best work, we go home, we come back again. 

Barbara: That's courage. And I think recruiters need to just grow a spine and think. I think I should be helping my client to convince him and advise him that the talent pool is open now, it's wide, it doesn't have to be in your image or my image. Take a look at some different types of people, I don't believe in blind CVs, I think you should know my name is whatever my name is. 

Barbara: So that I'm not exactly like you and that's the reason why you should take me because I'm not exactly like you, that's why I don't like blind CVs but that's another conversation. So I think that they really are missing an opportunity and I think they need to be courageous. And I need to think, even if, for one minute, just not think about just the commission and I have a quote. 

Barbara: Which seems applicable for recruiters and the quote is from Thomas Sowell, and he is, he's about nineties now, he's black, he's African-American and he's an economist, and he said something that just seemed to sum up where we are with recruiters and the whole atmosphere that we have and the whole situation we find our industry in, and it says, "when you want to help people", this is for you, recruiters especially, "you'll tell them the truth." 

Sudha: Yeah. 

Barbara: "But when you want to help yourself" by your commission, "you'll tell them what they want to hear." And that's exactly where we are, sadly. So I think there's a role to play for recruiters.  And I know a few of them say, and a few of them are on the scene saying, "yep, we're harping inclusiveness and et cetera, et cetera" and they participate and what have you, but to be honest, I don't believe that they're pushing people, especially senior roles. I don't believe headhunters and those elite recruiters that , ring you up out of the blue and say, you've got this great board job for you, I think it's just performative because the boards are still male, pale and stale. So either they're failing on a massive scale or it's performative. 

Sudha: Yeah. Also, I think they need a huge amount of awareness and understanding about the untapped talent pool that exists. 

Barbara: Indeed. 

Sudha: Actually in today's world, should have already read about it or should know about it. But if they don't, then they need to know about it. 

Barbara: Well, it's 2023, there's enough information to fill the British library on what you need to know about inclusive cultures, all of the various buzzwords; DNI, inclusivity, equity, et cetera, et cetera, it's all there. So if you don't know about it, it's 'cause you don't want to know, let's be honest, you don't want to know.

Sudha: Absolutely agreed on that. So moving on, Barbara, do you think shadow boards could be the way forward as a way to build skills and visibility for talent? You're smiling. 

Barbara: It's a hard ‘No’ for...