What to do when the rug is pulled out from underneath you? Digital entrepreneur Martha Lane Fox and broadcaster Dotty Charles talk to Viv Groskop about surviving and even thriving in a world turned upside down. They talk the value of focus, the power of denial, the strength in uncertainty and why we must care less -but care better.

@VivGroskop
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Dotty's book "Outraged: Why Everyone is Shouting and Noone is Talking" is out now.

You can find out more about Martha's cat's namesake at Blue Marine Foundation.

Viv's books, including Au Revoir Tristesse: Lessons in Happiness from French Literature and Lift As You Climb: Women and the Art of Ambition are also out now.

Music is by Liam Grundy   Design is by Sean Brightman.