Barry and James have words with author / historian / definitely NOT apologist John Dickson (@johnpauldickson), whose new book is all about the very checkered history of the Church. Does religion poison everything, as Christopher Hitchens maintained? What are we to make of the Crusades, for example?

• Bullies & Saints by John Dickson
• Undeceptions (John's podcast)

The Cooper & Cary Store is now open. Buy things you don't need to maintain a podcast you're not sure about. It's literally all win.

Production and music by Cooper & Cary. Opening theme by Roger Taylor, AKA Beyond Our Galaxy.

Would you like:

• Access to the entire back catalogue of more than 100 episodes (only 30 are available via Apple Podcasts, Spotify etc). 
• Access to extended audio and video versions of every new episode, days before the edited audio is released. That's 26 extended episodes every year. 
• Access to never before released episodes. 
• Access to occasional live video Q+A sessions in which you can ask James and Barry anything. 
• Access to the members-only Cooper & Cary Discord server. 

If so, become a C&C Patron!