Shownotes:

As a podcast host one of my biggest joys is celebrating incredible people making a difference. People who I know through my work or because of my podcast or from my networks who have raised the bar either in their personal or professional life.

My guest on the 129th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast is Ashima Tyagi, our lives intersected briefly in the late 2000s when we worked in different divisions of one of India’s largest PR and PA agency. At the time Ashima was a rookie, getting to grips with operating in male dominated and patriarchal metals and mining industry in India. Fast forward to 2024 when I bumped into her on LinkedIn. I was chuffed to see Ashima Tyagi was Economics Associate Director, at S&P Global Market Intelligence unit in Singapore.

I had a lot of questions for her – about the move from Delhi to Singapore, her experience of living and working in a new country and culture away from her family. I was curious to understand how she was navigating work-life balance and what it meant to her, especially considering that we have it drilled into us, that hard work (long hours) and sacrifice is the route to success. 

We also spoke about her leadership style has evolved over the years, the impact of imposter syndrome, how organizational culture can drag women down or enable them to thrive, her role in WINS S&P Global, networks and networking, her advice to young women joining the industry today, what motivates her and ambition……

While Ashima’s may not recognize it her move to Singapore was a brave decision at many levels a) She had never moved cities before b) She was leaving behind her husband and one year old son c) Her motivation was personal growth. Not many young women in this part of the world are able to priorities their personal and professional ambitious and it continues to stymie and disadvantage them. So, kudos @Ashima Tyagi, every little step counts……

To hear more about Ashima’s personal and professional growth head to the podcast (link in comments) 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning, Ashima. Wonderful to have you finally as a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast. We've been like talking about this for some time, but it wasn't quite working out until now.

Ashima: Thanks Sudha. Thank you so much for this opportunity. I really appreciate it.

Sudha: So, for the benefit of our listeners, I know you from our time together at Vaishnavi, where we interacted briefly. let's start with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do.

Ashima: I've spent nearly, I think, 16 years plus in the commodities world and currently I share my expertise, insights as an economist, primarily in the metals and mining sector. In my current role, of course, we're helping clients navigate the volatility that we see in the supply chains. And we do this by embedding all of that in our pricing forecast and buying strategies and that helps our clients also achieve cost savings, on all the things that they source.

Sudha:

Not everybody understands the commodities market, so you've explained it very well in layperson terms. So Ashima, you moved a couple of years back to Singapore. What has been your experience of living and working in a new country and culture?

And of course, Singapore has a huge expat community.

Ashima: Yeah, I relocated to Singapore around six years ago, but because of the pandemic, it just seems even smaller. And I've experienced remarkable personal and professional growth, I think this time. And the context to that is that I literally never even moved cities within India during the first three decades of my life, let alone moving countries.

I was born in New Delhi, brought up in NCR, which is the National Capital Region, always stayed with my parents, and then after marriage, in my husband's home with my in laws. So, it was a very protected and sheltered life. Primarily worked in Connaught Place also where we worked together, and everything was largely in my comfort zone.

Moving to Singapore was a big step, was a huge step, but I wanted to take it for my professional growth. I had been working in India for a decade and was feeling very stagnated. But the challenge initially was more on the fact that I was leaving my one-year-old son behind. So emotionally, it was very wrecking.

The work that I was also doing was completely different from what I was doing in India, though I was within the steel industry, but the work profile was totally different. So again, it was a huge learning curve.

Plus, when I moved, it seemed the work experience of 10 years in India just didn't matter because you have to prove yourself all over again and It was very difficult. I realized that we sometimes tend to be in a small bubble of our own and when you move countries you realize that the world is much larger. I think back in India, I considered myself one of the really smarter ones, I always had that confidence, but when I moved here and was surrounded by talented people from like all over the world in my company, I just was a little unsure of my own talent for a while. And I also realized how rigid I was, how set in my own ways I was. And being a vegetarian also didn't help much, I think. So in the first couple of months, it was quite difficult. There was a little bit of crying. There's a little bit of helplessness. I thought I made a mistake by moving because your life was comfortable back in India.

I contemplated returning but a friend in Singapore that time told me, just hang on for a year, experience things, and she was of the view that Singapore is going to spoil you because it's so comfortable and easy to live in, and you will never want to return. And her words came out to be true.

So here I am, for the past six years and not wanting to go anywhere.

Sudha: Oh, how interesting you’ve spoken about how the experience was, moving to a new country and how it made you question yourself. As women, we tend to question ourselves constantly. We suffer from the imposter, we have self-doubt, with the best of qualifications, you can still be very worried about whether you will fit in or whether you're capable enough. So how do you as a senior woman professional, how do you find the balance between your personal and professional?

Especially since you're in a new country you have to prove yourself again. That experience, like you said, that decade long experience just doesn't count because people don't know you and you have to start all over again. You also mentioned you left a one-year-old back home and that's a very difficult thing to do. So how did you manage to create that balance where, you are able to focus on your priorities both personal and professional?

Ashima: Yeah, I, to be honest, never been thinking about this too much until recently.

And I'm glad we're recording the podcast right now where I'm having a little bit more clarity rather than a year back. I'm not proud to say this, but I think this year is really the first time in my life that I'm focusing on my health and focusing on the time I'm spending with my two kids now, which are seven and three, instead of just hustling away and trying to achieve more and more professionally.

Obviously, the thinking that time was that you are achieving professionally so that you can provide your kids with the best of education. But now I'm realizing that the kids need your time and attention as well. So, I'm hearing a lot of stories on how, teenagers sometimes are not connecting with parents. And that has primarily to do with the fact that parents didn't have conversations since the beginning. You don't speak to the teens when they grow up, you speak to them when they are young, when they are toddlers. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I think you cannot have a perfect balance for sure.

It's always tilting on one or the other side and still you have to actively plan, and you have to constantly try to balance things out. And you could do it by, sometimes setting boundaries, sometimes prioritizing self-care or utilizing your support networks. So, in my case now, there are trips that I've taken, with a group of friends so leaving my kids, spouse, everyone behind, so which means that it really allows me time to myself.

So I do that once in a while also, but at the same time I have to manage the kids as well. So it's a constant, everyday a balancing act, but it's never in a perfect state of balance for sure.

Sudha: Yeah, definitely there's no such thing as a perfect balance, your priorities keep changing I think day to day, week on week, month on month, year on year as children go through various stages. And yeah, there is no right way to do things. You just have to wing it. And like you said, you just have to set some boundaries at some point to give yourself also the space to be able to do everything justice, everything that you have on your plate.

So Ashima, I speak a lot about women and leadership, and this is something that I want to ask you also about different styles of leadership specifically to do with women, what has been your own leadership journey like, and do you have a specific style and what does it mean actually to be a leader?

Because in the past couple of years, we have new definitions, we've redefined what leadership means. what are your thoughts on this?

Ashima: Again, it's a very good time that you're speaking to me now, because as I said earlier, I used to be all about hitting goals, targets, being ambitious, super driven, ready to put in the hours. Working during the weekend was never a big deal for me. I never understood why people make a big deal of it, you know, used to do it quite often. And where I was coming from was the fact that back home in India, I like sometimes see your maid coming to your house, going to 10 different houses, doing the cleaning, working so hard.

So I used to think that my life is still comfortable, I don't have to work as hard as millions of people are working in India. And if I work over the weekend what's the big deal about it? I could do that much and, we are very resilient. So even in the pandemic, I think I was literally pouring myself into work, unlike many people who were baking banana breads or, experimenting with skin care, which I now think was the right thing to do, you know, for self-care in those stressful years.

For me, I would say the style was more performance driven in the recent past also. It was more about, executing and deciding to go after things and get them done and the sense of accomplishment that you get after that. But now again, I'm leaning to the more empathetic style, given my, again, own circumstance where I have young kids, diverse responsibilities.

I think I understand things better for everyone. I get that, not everyone can bring in the same amount of passion and the same amount of work on an everyday basis. And you have to be mindful of everyone's unique situation. So earlier, I think I used to get frustrated when I used to not find people coming in with the same enthusiasm on something, but now I understand because I'm also stepping back myself, a lot of times now. So again, this also is about balancing performance with your own wellness. That you can give your best, yet not burn out in the process as well. For me now, I think I don't work as much on the weekend as I used to.

I want to give time to my children, which I don't give during the weekday.

Sudha: Okay, so your leadership style has definitely been influenced by your personal circumstances and learning and that it doesn't make you a lesser leader if you are not at it 24 seven. So, you know we've already spoken a bit about, self-doubt and imposter syndrome.

But I have a question. How does it affect you? And are there occasions when you doubt yourself or your decision-making capabilities? How do you address it? And what would you say to younger colleagues, who may face this issue.

Ashima: Yeah. I mean, imposter syndrome, I think creeps in every now and then, there are days when you feel on top of the world, and you feel like there's no one better than you.

And then there are days when you feel absolutely no good. Then, obviously you have to remind yourself of your journey and how far you've come in the first place. And my husband also really encourages me a lot of times when I'm really questioning my ability. Recently I was speaking to a mentor, and I was actually telling him that my communication skills are not very good.

And he was like, why are you saying that? So, there are moments when I feel like nothing is working. But again, think of the small little things you should be grateful of, things that bring joy into your life and feel stable again, feel normal again. I've started to do things like journaling and affirmations and self-love.

Initially again, it was very awkward to just pat yourself on the back at the end of every day and be like, I'm proud of what I did, it was a very new concept, but I think gradually I'm seeing a change in myself where, I'm okay with deciding to do a limited amount of work at the start of the day.

And at the end of the day, finishing it well, and then patting myself on the back because as I said I was so much into work and trying to grow that I had a lot of doubts all the time.

So I connected with a therapist also a couple of years back. And she told me that, Ashima, you're not being kind to yourself, and I couldn't believe it because I used to think I love myself so much. I spend so much on my clothes and my makeup, and I do everything for myself. But only to realize later that being kind to yourself means that you don't beat yourself up every time you make a mistake. And I wouldn't say I'm completely on the other side now, but if earlier it took me five days to forgive myself for something, now it might take two, so I'm still working on it.

I think it also has something to do with Asian parenting or maybe Indian parenting where you know, parents are very comfortable sometimes criticizing you, but they are not very vocal in appreciating you.

In my case also, my father, I think he had this feeling that if he praises me too much, even when I'm doing well academically, that will somehow make me very complacent and I'll stop delivering, I'll derail myself on the progress.

I'll just become overconfident. That's not really the case. We understand now.

Sudha: Yeah. I think in Indian culture, we do have this thing where we tend not to praise children. It's, we love you, you're expected to know that we love you, but yeah, you're not getting any praise for anything.

And I think we are to be excessively humble. If you've done things, that's great for you, but please no need to like tom tom about it or talk about it or even discuss it even within the family. It's like no big deal that you did it.

Ashima: Yeah. And even proverbs like empty vessels make more sound, make you feel like it's very blasphemous to even appreciate yourself. I recently attended a Google workshop called I'm Remarkable where they asked you to speak out in a full room of people. Why do you think you are proud of yourself? And there were a lot of people who could say that very openly, but I struggled because I was like, how can I? Praise myself like that. I'm not used to that.

Sudha: Yeah. How can I praise myself for doing well at work and surviving and doing this and doing that?

Ashima: Yeah. I'm supposed to do it anyway.

Yeah.

Sudha: What would your advice be to younger colleagues on how to address it? Some of your learnings.

Ashima: I think it's a personal journey in some way. Look into your childhood or all the traumas that you've had I do feel that therapy really helps you delve into your past, see what was happening and make corrective steps. I think self-love needs to be prioritized for sure. Standing up for yourself and believing in yourself is something that you have to sometimes practice and then it starts to come naturally to you.

Sudha: You say it enough of times and you start believing it.

So Ashima, how important do you believe is organisational culture to ensuring that women can progress to leadership positions or tribal leadership positions?

Ashima: I think absolutely crucial. When I mentioned to you earlier that I wasn't growing while working in India for a long time, it had something to do with the steel industry which is primarily male dominated and you know, the patriarchal elements.

I remember visiting a steel plant in Chhattisgarh once, and I literally had to walk a considerable distance to find a female toilet. Of course things are changing now, there are women on the shop floor, but still, I think much more needs to be done. So as a confident young woman in the corporate office that time, I struggled to understand how I could really progress to the top, what could I really do? I was really feeling very stagnated and I knew Singapore will really offer me that opportunity because when I work here, I don't see any difference between how a man is treated versus how a woman is treated. There's absolutely no difference because everyone works here. You sometimes need dual incomes because it's the most expensive city in the world also. But what I feel is that essentially it cannot be a single person's problem, if you want to grow professionally as a woman you need that entire ecosystem, that can foster inclusivity that can really empower women, your diverse perspective is valued to some extent.

And by that ecosystem, it can't be just the company. It's the whole societal setup. I think we were talking earlier about women's participation in the labor force in India and we actually co-wrote a piece from my organisation recently,