Shownotes:

2018, was a defining year for me career wise, it was also the year when I was able to live up to my aspiration to contribute a percentage of my time pro-bono to the third sector. I had the opportunity to align and engage with PRADAN, a leading Indian charity working in the livelihoods space. This opened the door for some wonderful collaborations and strategic work with the organisation in the last 6 years. The person who enabled this partnership was Sudhir Sahni – our paths had intersected briefly in the past.

A veteran of the Indian Advertising Industry, Sudhir made a deliberate shift to the non-profit sector after three decades, in the quest for work that aligned with his beliefs. At PRADAN Sudhir leverages his experience to foster partnerships and amplify PRADANs impact amongst external stakeholders.

In the 130th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast, Sudhir talks about his transformative journey from the corporate to the social sector; the intrinsic motivations that guided the move; his desire for a collaborative approach to work focusing on individual potential; challenges faced by the development sector; the evolving funding landscape; equity and inclusion in the third sector; a community centred approach to delivering projects; women in leadership; ….etc.

We also spoke about the impact of Transformers an interview series featuring leaders and best practice from the third sector and Samagam, a multi-stakeholder platform conceptualised and hosted by PRADAN to facilitate dialogues and collaboration amongst the third sector, private sector and governments. 

It is great to call a fellow champion and ally for women in the workplace, a friend.

To hear more about Sudhir’s transition to the third sector head to the podcast 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning, Sudhir. Welcome to the Elephant in the Room podcast today. Thank you for being a guest.

Sudhir: Hi Sudha, it's always a pleasure talking to you. Happy to be with you today. Thank you.

Sudha: So let's get started. My first question to you is how did this move happen from advertising to the social sector or the impact or the development sector? Was this a planned move the? Last time I'd met you before you were with Pradan you were at Ogilvy?

Sudhir: Yeah. I've had a wonderful career in the advertising world over almost about 28 odd years and I loved what I was doing. And I loved, the kind of influence it had on people, on consumers. So that was great. At some point I felt that my style of working and engaging with people was I would say far more collaborative than competitive, which is required in the corporate world. And for me, I think getting the work done was more important than getting credit for it.

I was beginning to wonder whether at a certain point I may not be so fit for the corporate world going forward. And my learning curve was beginning to plateau. And I would especially find pleasure in helping people achieve their tasks and realize their potential the underdog performing was far more exciting, than the champion team delivering a winning campaign I felt that maybe I may have a far more, if I may say, you know, within quotes, socialist outlook. And was happier to create more equals within the team than, create or deal with unequals.

So that was beginning to fester in my mind.

A couple of campaigns that really excited me. One was The Pulse Polio Immunisation Campaign wherein you had to mobilize almost the entire population that had kids up to five years of age repeatedly on the immunisation days and get them to the booth and get their children given the polio drops and it was a remarkable kind of success. We managed more than 98 percent of the population coming to the booths. So that was very exciting, inspiring.

The other one was VDIS, which was the voluntary disclosure of income scheme, which was actually way back in 97 which was basically inspiring a nation to actually come into the mainstream and pay taxes. Not too many people were wanting to do that, and there were a lot of people who found reasons not to pay taxes. How to get people over a six month period to actually join the mainstream by paying taxes was quite a task. The success that we achieved over that six months period was quite exciting. And I thought that, you know, these kinds of things of mobilizing people and having a large impact on the audiences that we deal with was something that was exciting. And I was beginning to therefore look at the social sector as an option going forward.

So I started looking around, I initially went into something else related to advertising and communication and even sports marketing for a while. But again, I felt that I was looking at creating more new talent and helping the marginalized people coming into mainstream rather than just dealing with champions. And then in conversation with my wife, I felt that I would look at some social causes. I looked at garbage recycling, I looked at other issues, but essentially my wife then kind of inspired me to say that, I've always worked well with people in a good organisation. So I might benefit more by joining a large organisation that is already doing some good work rather than try and create some small niche for myself. And that's how then I started talking to more people within the sector.

And I think by a happy coincidence frankly, I met Naren who was my batchmate from school. He had been in Pradan for over 28 odd years or so. He later became the executive director of the organisation. So I kind of chatted with him and I was telling him that I was looking to do something in the development sector. And he said, you know what? I've been around here for about 28 odd years. And I said, okay, so I really want to know what you do.

I understood what Pradan did, I had an eight-day field visit, and I was absolutely thrilled, amazed at the kind of work that the organisation was doing in the sector. And I thought that this was something that would interest me. So that's how finally entered the development sector. And I've been in the same organisation for over seven years now.

Sudha: Wow. What I really like, Sudhir, that you are very self-aware about where you were headed and where you were going because often we are not self-aware and I think despite being deeply unhappy, or despite recognizing that we are not actually using our strengths or talents to go where we should be, we continue to exist in the same sort of ecosystem and struggle there in the short and long term.

So that's an incredible journey. You've answered some part of the second question, what caused you to take that leap of faith? And what drew you to the sector? I think you could elaborate more on what drew you to the sector. You knew Naren, which is a very happy coincidence. it is like quite a seismic move for somebody moving from the corporate to the development sector.

Sudhir: I was closing on to 50 years of age then, and I was thinking that even in my earlier days, both at work and even earlier days in school and college, I was always very interested and excited by helping some of my colleagues or some of my students who are not doing so well.

Even in Ogilvy, I was very keen and there was a time when there was a business that was coming our way. And I felt that the direct marketing team would do a better job of managing their business.

And I offered that business to that team and the head of that stream Ogilvy XXXXX XXXX, he says, why are you giving me this business? Is that a lemon? I said, no, no, I just feel that your team would do a far better job of managing that business and delivering on it rather than, the advertising business.

As I said, that the development sector, social sector gave much more opportunity for that kind of thinking, that kind of collaborative working. Also, I think Pradan is an organisation, what drew me to that was that it also believes strongly on realizing individual people's potential. That always felt that and my thinking also was that financial resources and in fact, even time resources, that time wasted can be made up. But if professional resource, human resource talent is wasted, then that's the biggest miss that we have.

And to that extent, this organisation, as I mentioned, Pradan kind of seemed to echo the same thought. And that's why got more interested in joining the sector.

Sudha: That's why you gravitated towards it. And how has the experience been, was it a shock to the system?

Was there a difference in how people operated?

Sudhir: Yeah Sudha, so frankly, I think for me both the initial months and almost now seven and a half years that I have been there in the sector and in the organisation, I would say quite surreal at one level and I would say extremely fulfilling on the other because frankly, and I consider myself still as a bit of an outsider from the sector.

And I think I'm quite in awe of the development sector workers and professionals, and I strongly believe that, the work that they do is far more complicated than selling soaps and shampoos, but even selling IT products and financial products. So the work that they do, commitment that they have is, something that really overawes me.

You know, it really beats me how young people can commit their lives to work for others and the society rather than look for personal material gains and comfort. So I think this approach of being more collaborative and inclusive is something that really excites me. But on the other hand, I think at times I feel that there might be a lack of commitment in terms of deadlines and timelines, because I think a lot of people within the sector believe that good work needs to be done. It doesn't need to have a timeline. It doesn't need to have a deadline. And that sometimes used to frustrate me and at times even frustrate me now. But overall, I think the fact that I entered with the idea that I would have to pick up things and I was willing to join even as an apprentice in the organisation.

So because I think I came with an approach that I would learn and then take things forward. I thought I had a pretty kind of seamless entry and kind of carried on in the organisation for such a long time.

Sudha: Some of what you say I have experienced whenever I visited Pradan and the field visits.

And for those of us still on the outside or on the margins, it seems like, a big sacrifice because there is a sacrifice in terms of material gains.

So, at Pradan what is your role, Sudhir, and how do you leverage your corporate experience, if at all, if you get a chance.

Sudhir: Yeah. So I think that was really the idea. So even when I looked at the organisation and I was talking to the people around there, I think the idea was that I should leverage some of the skills or experience that I bring from the corporate world.

The starting point of course, was that I said that the organisation does some great work. Why don't people from outside know about it or why don't we talk about it? And the people in the organisation that have xxxxxxx xxxxxx said that, no, we are very good at our work. We focus on our work. We really don't know how talk about it. So if you think this is worth talking about and it is useful to talk about, please go ahead and do that for us. It was more about talking a lot more about their work and showcasing it and putting it in the form that could be shared.

Because I had a corporate experience, I had networks, I could then bring in more corporate partners. So even as Pradan was growing as an organisation and wanted to increase its reach and impact, it needed many more partners corporate partners to support its funding efforts.

So first in terms of communicating their work and two in terms of getting more corporate partners was essentially the area that I was working with. My sense is because, over the years, I had developed certain level of credibility with the people that I worked with on the corporate side. They were willing to consider the organisation that I was working with, even though they may not prima facie have had too much experience or awareness about the organisation. So that helped a lot. And I think both the organisation and I benefited from each other’s association.

Sudha: And I think the start of the journey, I remember we did a huge stakeholder mapping exercise around the brand and how they were engaging, et cetera. My next question actually leads into, some of the challenges facing the sector and because the world over the sector is facing, issues to do with funding. Funding is getting squeezed, there is changing expectation from donors, partners, stakeholders. There is a need for more transparency and of course the sector suffers from lack of inclusion. And the perpetual challenge about the inability to attract the best talent because of how they are remunerated, and also the perceived problems that the sector faces.

So there are two questions here that I have for you. One is, is the sector prepared to face some of these challenges or all of these challenges? And two is what are the steps it's taking to address?

Sudhir: I think fair question Sudha, I think a lot of us are still grappling with those issues.

But I think if you look at it on a larger scale and go to the basics of it, I think as a sector, and many of the organisations, including the organisation that I work with, has tended to stay away from communicating the work that they do. And how does that work happen? So there is almost a sense of mysteriousness, and almost a shadow on what the organisation and what the sector does and how does it do it.

And as I said that, because a lot of the larger organisations and the sector overall has not invested too strongly in communicating or talking about its work, there is always been an unknown factor. People say, we don't know what you're doing and whether there is any evidence of proof of the impact that you create, what is the process that you follow.

And there is almost a, I must say, you know, reverse snobbery in the sector. They say, no, no, there is no point telling you because you will never understand. And I keep telling people that, you know, that's not the way to happen because if you need more people to come and work with you, you need more talent to come within the organisation, then you have to be far more open and communicative about what you do, even though it might seem a little difficult to do it.

So I remember I met a development apprentice once in Pradan, a person had joined only about six, seven months back. And I said, okay, so how are things, how does your family take the fact that you have a professional engineering degree and you are now in this sector? So he said, you know, whenever I go back home and I will say that this in Hindi, he says, "jab bhi main ghar jaata hun toh mera ki mera babla beta aa gaya".

So this almost mad guy. I don't know what does he do? Where does he work? I really don't understand what he does. And he said, you know, I've tried a couple of times to explain to him, but now I've given up. And he almost kind of half broke down, he says, because I think my father will never understand and I don't want to explain it to him. And I said, no, you need to understand that your father has a right to know, and also it's important for you to explain, because frankly, I think your dad, his network, his people, and a lot of people outside the sector need to be your allies. They need to understand what you do and you need to explain it to them because how on earth otherwise will they kind of come around to supporting the work that you do.

And you need all people to work with you. So you need to collaborate with a lot of more people, you need to educate some of the key stakeholders. And this I would think, imagine goes with the corporate sector, with the funding stakeholders, and lots of times, even the government sector needs to understand what the sector brings in to make impact on a scale, how important it is to get good talent.

This is a matter, not just for the heart, but it means a lot of good head and good thinking to make the change happen and therefore it requires that kind of talent. Also the fact that it needs a certain level of time and investment in communities, relationships, building that confidence for us to help make that change happen.

So overall, I think there needs to be a far more openness and a sharing collaborative kind of approach where a, you talk about the thing that you do, what is the process it takes to bring about change. The fact that it could be time consuming and therefore people need to stay invested in it, the fact it needs very good talent and resource to be put in and therefore good talent should be remunerated.

I think the areas broadly that I think. If we were to look at would be very useful for the sector to benefit from and for overall development program. Because frankly, I think the development sector the NGOs organisations actually help the government programs work far better. A lot of organisations like Pradan and others who work with communities at grassroots, I think, bring to the table what the communities really need.

And therefore, in that sense, help governments and other institutions design their programs far better. And two is, once those programs are designed, I think it also helps them to implement them far better. If the government is the biggest development stakeholder and has huge amounts of money, then that money needs to be used well, and I think in that sense, the NGOs or the development sector stakeholders are very crucial, and people need to understand the role that they play.

Once they understand that, and the more they are understanding that, I think there's far more openness now and acceptance of the roles that stakeholders play in the process.

Sudha: Whether it's the government or the private sector or individual public, if you're speaking about a country like India to solve some of its biggest problems, the government cannot do it on its own. It needs the...