Show Notes:

The current negative sentiment and noise around equity and inclusion can feel overwhelming. At such times it makes sense to step back and celebrate the work of organisations steadfast in their vision (there are many of them around). The Taylor Bennett Foundation (TBF) is one such organisation dedicated to increasing racial and ethnic diversity in the communications industry that has been doing some stellar work to deliver on its purpose. I recently took the opportunity to invite Koray Camgöz, the new CEO of the TBF and one of the nicest people I know in the UK PR industry to talk about his priorities and focus.

Koray has been a staunch advocate for building a fairer and more inclusive industry from his time at the PRCA, including championing the work of PRCA REEB and the EIAB. Always extending himself to support the cause. So, it was great to hear him reflect on his experiences including his recent stint at Ketchum and how it has shaped/prepared him for his current role as CEO. We also spoke about 👇🏾 👇🏾 👇🏾

👉🏾 Systemic barriers that have historically hindered diversity, such as reliance on unpaid internships

👉🏾 The need to cultivate a supportive culture that welcomes and nurtures diverse talent

👉🏾 Koray argued for a steadfast commitment to DEI initiatives, linking inclusion to organizational success and innovation

👉🏾 Why leadership accountability is paramount for driving meaningful change within organizations

👉🏾 He shared examples of successful alumni and partnerships with leading organizations, illustrating the transformative impact of the foundation’s work.

The new CEO of Taylor Bennett Foundation envisions a future where the stories of diverse individuals are celebrated, positioning the Taylor Bennett Foundation as pivotal in reshaping the communications landscape.

To learn more, head to the podcast, link in comments 👇🏾 👇🏾 👇🏾

And keep tuned future episodes where I spotlight TBF and its incredible alumni.

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Hi Koray. Wonderful to meet with you after such a long time. It's been a couple of years, I think, since we last met. For the benefit of our viewers, let's start with a quick and a brief introduction.

Koray: Thank you Sudha, yes, and it's amazing to be with you.

I'm a huge fan of it. So, thank you, for inviting me back on. My name's Koray Camgöz. I'm the Chief Exec of the Taylor Bennett Foundation, which is a charity that exists to increase ethnic diversity in communications. I've been with the charity for just over four months now, and prior to that, I've been in communications for around about 15 years, most recently as a director at Ketchum and formerly with the PRCA and the CIPR.

Sudha: Congratulations on your role as the new CEO of Taylor Bennett Foundation. So how did the role come about and how has it been so far?

So tell us about how the role came about, how it has been so far.

Koray: Yes, I was with Ketchum for just over a year and a half in total. I worked principally with Adobe, but also with Samsung. But as you say, much of my focus was on corporate reputation.

I was in the corporate team at Ketchum. But everything that I approach when I was working both with client work and prior to that has always been through an inclusion lens and that carried over with a lot of work with clients as well. I was involved with a campaign with Samsung called ‘The Fine Line’, which helped kind of shine a light on issues around name bias. Inclusion, has always been a huge passion point of mine, and it was something that I was privileged to be part of at Ketchum but also prior to roles PRCA as well.

But in terms of how it came about, it was rather unplanned, I think is the best way of describing it. I was having a conversation with a friend. I'm sure he won't mind me mentioning it was Stephen Waddington. I was having a chat with him, and he mentioned that he'd seen this role advertised on LinkedIn. And as soon as he said it, I hadn't actually seen the role, so I didn't know there was a vacancy, but as soon as he said it, I thought that it was a really strong fit and just something that would align really well, and the more I went through the process, and the more I spoke to the trustees, it just became clear that this would be a brilliant opportunity, and obviously I've had the good fortune of working with the foundation, In different capacities, both when I was at the PRCA and CIPR.

So, and I know very well the impact that the organisation creates. And that above all was the big draw. It was the impact that it makes for people in our industry. So, it's an immense privilege to be in the role.

Sudha: I think we've had an opportunity to work on some impactful work with you leading the way at the PRCA. At the TBF, Koray, what are your priorities for the next two or three years? As a leader, what would you like to change? And where do you see the Taylor Bennett Foundation going?

Koray: The mission, I think, has been consistent since the organisation was founded.

So, the charity was founded more than 15 years ago now, and the mission remains the same. We're about increasing ethnic diversity and communications. It's a very straightforward and clear vision. I think for me the ambition over the next few years is to really scale our programs and expand our impact. I think there are 2 sides to that.

I think traditionally the foundation have done this amazing job of inspiring young people to pursue careers in communications and something that I'm genuinely passionate about is working with employers on the culture that exists in our industry and because you will notice that, but we can continue to hire people from diverse backgrounds until the cows come home, but unless there are real changes to cultures and to systems and environments in which these people are working, we'll be in a perpetual state of a lack of diversity. So it's all about supporting employers and helping them navigate their way through their transition to create more inclusive environment.

So I'm really, really focused on that. We've got lots of activity, which serves that purpose and we've got a round table coming up in May, which will be a first step towards that. But ultimately, yes, it's about inspiring young people and ensuring that the environment exists in our industry is genuinely inclusive and allows them to belong and to thrive.

Sudha: Yeah. Because I think the industry, per se, even as per the new census, there is more representation from Black and ethnic minorities. But like you said, if the culture isn't there, they'll probably get in and then get out after some time because they don't see themselves fitting in the industry and fitting in

Sudha: That has been a big challenge. 

Koray: I agree entirely. And I think that is the most current and present challenge facing the industry. It's about making leadership accountable and guiding them towards creating genuine change in the organisation.

So I think that's the big picture. And I want the foundation to be part of that. There are some other brilliant organisations doing work in this area as well. But from my point of view, I'm really passionate about ensuring we play a positive role in that challenge. Something which I came to appreciate before the role was just how profound the impact was that this organisation, that the foundation has on people's lives. And that has become more apparent in my first few months, I think speaking to people right across the career trajectory and hearing from them firsthand about just what a tremendous impact the foundation has had on them has been truly inspiring.

So when you asked me about, the foundation and what we're going to be focusing on going forward, a huge part of that for me personally, is about showcasing those stories. And it's about giving our alumni and the people who've gone through our programs, a platform to tell their story, because there have genuinely been some incredible stories, and we want to make sure that those are told.

Sudha: I've just recently met with two of your alumni Hannah and Shanil. And of course, Kuldeep, we work very closely with, we're at the PRCA Equity and Inclusion Advisory Council, brilliant people. Koray, considering your background and you've now moved into, this is definitely a charity sector role. Have you been able to leverage your experiences and learnings from the PRCA and Ketchum? And how different is it to working in a charity?

Is it more consensus driven? Is it slower? Is it more fast paced? Because agency life is so deadline driven.

Koray: It's very different. I'll be honest. Particularly from consultancy life and to be honest, working at a large consultancy is very different from working at a professional body as well, so they're all very different from one another.

I think the one thing I would say about the foundation is that it's very much a mission driven culture. We've got a brilliant team and everybody who is part of that team is really clear on why they turn up for work. And I think that it's inspiring and it really helps ground you in the decisions that you make.

I think that's probably the first difference that I would point out. I think from a practical point of view, working at the PRCA and the CIPR was very useful for this role. I think getting to know the industry, getting to know the people, work in the industry at all levels, I think has been hugely valuable.

And obviously I've had, you could say the fortune or perhaps the misfortune of working really closely on studies, which evidence the scale of the challenge that we [00:08:00] face when it comes to diversity and inclusion. So, whether it was the state of the profession or the PRCA census, I've done lots of work that highlights the issues that we have.

But I think now in this role, we can make real efforts towards improving the situation and to making this industry more inclusive.

And the other thing I would also say is just generally about the differences and thinking about my experiences that working at Ketchum was genuinely, a brilliant and fascinating career experience. I think that the opportunity to get under the hood of the industry was, interesting. And I think, when you're working at the PRCA or the CIPR, you're often commenting or reflecting on industry issues, but you're not actually seeing them first hand

And so, whether you're talking about things like pitching or, the importance of mental health or whatever industry issue might be talked at the moment, it's just really illuminating and interesting to see that firsthand at an agency. And I'll always be grateful for my time, particularly for the opportunities that I've got to work with some clients and work with some brilliant people.

Sudha: I think your experience actually, with the CIPR and PRCA, I think it has prepared you for this, role in the sense that if you had come to it from an outsider perspective or from agency or somewhere else, you wouldn't know the industry as well.

And now, like you said, you've also worked on the agency side. So you understand that I'd say career life cycle or the challenges of running a business day to day, how it functions.

That's amazing. Koray, so I think we met before COVID definitely, but I think we started working together because of the PRCA. with what happened, the George Floyd murder and Black Lives Matter. And at that time, there was a crescendo around it and it gained a momentum that didn't exist before, people used to speak about it, but it was not front and centre.

And that's what COVID did is it brought it front and centre. But we've seen, from even my time at the PRCA Equity and Inclusion Advisory Council is that in 20, 22, 23, we were seeing the interest petering out and now with the kind of politics that is there across the world, the rhetoric that is happening we are seeing a lot of peddling back. I wouldn't presume to know all the reasons but of course, it's all exacerbated because of the cost of living crisis and there are so many issues, right?

The industry is not moving, not everybody is able to get the job that they want, etc. So in this sort of scenario, would you agree that we'll see momentum on DEI only if agencies are committed, but agencies have sort of stalled or stopped or pulled back because they think they can pull back or they are prioritizing business because they think this is something that is separate.

Would you agree?

Koray: To be honest, I'm, in two minds about it because it's impossible to ignore what's happening in the world. There are large multinational organisations who are terminating DEI efforts. And yes, there's a lot of headlines and news coverage and the sea of distractions when it comes to DEI at the moment.

But I'm yet to see a real impact in the day to day. And it may well be that that plays out over the next few months. But to be honest with you, from the conversations that I've had with agency leaders and comms directors those who appreciated the value of what inclusive strategies deliver for organisations are not dissuaded.

And to be honest with you, I think it would take quite an incompetent leader for you to think, okay, well, I no longer need to focus on inclusion now because of some headlines and things that have happened in the press, to be honest with you. Organisations and businesses always rely on people, and they rely on people to perform roles to deliver value, irrespective of what the organisation's goal is or a sector.

If you want productive people, if you want a loyal workforce, if you want to reduce churn, if you want to improve the decision making process, if you want a more creative, more innovative team, all of that is dependent on having a team, which it's comprised of people from diverse backgrounds and diverse lived experiences.

So my honest assessment on that is that I think, we just need to stay the course and not be distracted by headlines, which at the moment are seeming to never end.

Sudha: I think there's a lot of rhetoric and it's like tabloid journalism and people are just talking a lot about what shouldn't be done around DEI. And as you mentioned, the rollbacks that we have seen some prominent organisations do, but then there are others who've not rolled back, and these are big multinationals that are sort of leading the way and are thought leaders.

Koray: Yeah, just on that, I would say that you're spot on. The headlines are everywhere at the moment. I mean, DEI has been blamed for everything from forest fires to aircraft disasters.

And so I think we just need to be sensible and to stay really focused on the value that these strategies deliver for organisations and also just not be distracted or dissuaded from what we know to be true. There's an analogy which I heard when I was at Ketchum from a guy called Mike Doyle, who was the global CEO at Ketchum at the time. He still is the global CEO, and he spoke about the importance of kind of, if you look at a, a barometer kind of emotional responses with like one being the worst day ever and 10 being the best day ever, and he spoke about always staying in the four, five, and six.

So, irrespective of whether you think things are going particularly well or whether you think things are going disastrously, it's really important that you just stay consistent.

And it's the same concept that, even if things are going very well, register those victories, and, be proud of yourself, but don't get carried away, Stay in the four or five or six and I think that mentality can be applied to the challenges that we're seeing now that can be applied to your own personal life. I think it's a really important principle to adhere to, particularly in a world where things are changing all the time and there's a lot of noise.

Sudha: Yeah. I agree like you mentioned that when you're speaking with leaders, it doesn't seem like they are giving up on the prioritisation of equity and inclusion.

But I'd say that, with all the rhetoric and all the conversations that are happening and also with AI and technology and new tools, the people most likely to get impacted are people at the lower levels and I guess there'll come a stage where others also do get impacted.

How do we get leaders to continue to make a concerted effort to attract not just for the sake of representation, but also when they invite people in, they're inclusive enough. Do you think that leaders have that mindset at this point in time where they have that much of energy because it's so much harder to do business in the industry at this point?

It's not easy, right? Even for agencies, I don't want to mention the name of a agency leader, but they did, talk about technology and how in the future we are going to see in the next one or two years that they'll be employing more freelance and associate sort of models to get people in. Because they're not sure, clients are not signing up for the long term and they are more like short term projects and the retainer stuff is not as steady as it used to be. You knew earlier, I'd say maybe five years ago, you knew when the retainers were coming and they were going to stay for some time.

In that environment, how do you make sure that, the thing that is the easiest to do away with, you don't do that?

Koray: Yeah, I think, to be honest, if you're looking at it in those terms, it's almost impossible to prioritize inclusion to the extent that it needs to be.

I think you need to take a step back and think about why the organisation exists, what the mission is and what needs to be done in order to...