Show Notes

Many of you are familiar with @kiwigirl in UK. For this episode of the podcast we have a vocal cheerleader for school leavers as my guest. Penny Anderson is also Client Director of Reputation Intelligence at Kantar Media. In this episode Penny talks about her own Elephant in the room, her path to leadership, diversity & inclusion, role models, mental health and well being during the pandemic, learning to accept who she is and strategies to inclusion in the workplace

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Memorable passages from the conversation: 

• ‘The Elephant in the Room’ in the for me is very much around education and around people's backgrounds and the insistence of some companies that you must've achieved a certain educational level, or you must have a degree where actually it's not required. It's such a bug bear of mine. I was asked in a job interview once if I regretted not having a degree and then they actually used the fact that I didn't have a degree to not give me the job. And I was quite glad I didn't get the job because it's not probably somewhere I would have wanted to, to work. Actually, I went to a state school and I didn't go to university and I'm actually pretty pleased with who I am and what I eat. So I get very excitable, over this. And I just want everyone should be treated equally. Judge people on merit and their skills, not the accents and what their father did for a living.
• And right from a very, very early age, I never ever considered anything beneath me are whatever I was asked to do. I would do it the best of my ability if I was filing, answering the phone. And I did them well. So when I actually looked around and thought actually I can be a recruitment consultant. So I asked them. I just said, look, is there a chance for me to become a recruitment consultant and again, they were sort of taken, taken aback, but I think they were quite used to me by then. And they were like, yeah, great. We'll train you up. I was still, probably only 17-18 at the time. I became a recruitment consultant and you know, I asked for a promotion and I got it. I made the decision to leave New Zealand at the age of 20, which now looking back. I think that seems very, very young. But at 20 I packed up a couple of bags of clothes. I had saved 500 pounds which seemed like a huge amount of money at the time. And certainly was 27 years ago. I arrived at Heathrow, got picked up by a girlfriend who lived there already, but I had nowhere to stay. I had no job, got a B&B, got a temp job a few days later and then was made permanent from that temp role. Again, I was working in a recruitment agency, so I'd always just worked in recruitment agencies and I just felt that I needed to go out and actually experience life outside of a recruitment agency so I made, what I believe is probably the best career decision of my life and I accepted a job working for PIMs which I don't know anybody sort of listening and be old enough to remember the [PIMS]. And I worked really closely with Alex who was the MD and he knew everybody in the industry. He basically just introduced me to everybody. And these people that he introduced me to still in my professional life. You've got all the people who we were at the same age and we were all coming up at the same time. They're now running their own agencies, I am now leading a division at Kantar. It was just fantastic and I loved it and I just grasped it with both hands. I went to every networking event. I went to every drinks event, every lunch and just got to know everybody and it was just, it was just incredible. And then after leaving [PIMS] I worked at PR Newswire. 
• And then eventually I started work at Precise. Precise was taken over by Kantar and 12 years later, I'm still there. But that's kind of my journey. And as I say, I just believe I have taken every opportunity. I have made the most of it and just made a real effort to speak to as many people as possible. And also I have never, ever, ever forgotten. Mo at FTI who, is a very dear friend of mine and someone that I met 27 years ago when she was at FTI and she once said to me, she said, why do you only invite the senior people to the events? And I thought, well, I just automatically assume that's what they're supposed to do. I just said, no, no, you need to invite the junior people as well, because they might be the ones making the decision. And that was such an important lesson to me. 
• So, first of all, I'd probably want to just shake them and say, if you want to do something, make it happen. Do not sit there, waiting for someone to give you an opportunity, decide where you want to work. Have a look on LinkedIn, find out if someone is speaking at a network event, make up excuses to link in with them. Just have the confidence to really reach out, all through my career. I've been willing to do whatever I've needed to do. Be very good natured. No one wants anyone difficult working with them, yeah, it doesn't mean not questioning either. 
• You know, that there's a massive cliche, but really the only person that is stopping you to success is you. I never had a plan except that I knew I wanted to be self-sufficient. My mother always, always worked. She was always the, kind of more of the breadwinner in the house. I knew that I didn't want to be reliant on anyone. So I, you know, I think that a lot of my decisions about what I did, meant that it was, you know, in a way that I could be self-sufficient. I also wanted to be someone that people looked up to and actually that people, so as someone who has done okay. And actually, to be respected. But, what I would say to anyone wanting to get into the public relations industry, or indeed in any of the sectors surrounding the public relations industry is go to every single networking event you can. You will be amazed at just how quickly you get known. Find someone who has spoken at an event and drop them an email or a message on LinkedIn saying how much you enjoyed listening to them speak, and you enjoyed this particular part of it. 
• And as I say, go to everything, everything is online at the moment. It is more difficult. But actually in some ways, a little bit easier because you can see everybody's name, you can see everybody's faces and you can see everybody who talks. You won't always get a response and you won't always get the response you want, but don't give up.
• I think that to take your first question, I think the industry has definitely changed a lot over the last 27 years. And I do think that there is some way to go. But I also think that organisations like CIPR and PRCA are doing amazing things and I love the apprenticeship scheme from the PRCA. I love the fact that you have to pay your apprentice. If you want to be a member of the PRCA and you want to sign up to that, you have to pay your apprentice. That is such a key step, you can't take an unpaid internship you know, most people can't do that. Particular agencies are doing great things to change the diversity of the PR, sector. I think agencies like, FleishmanHillard Fishburn doing blind CVS, Lansons for years have actively encouraged comm team members to come back after having children and offer huge flexibility around that.
• We need to make it though a lot clearer in our outreach that the industry doesn't care about your accent, your school, what your parents or your grandparents did and you'll reach your success on merit. Going back to your previous question, what can I do to actually put myself forward? Don't think that, Oh God, you know, I'm probably not going to fit in there. I'm not going to apply for that job. Do apply for that job. Do tell them why you are right for that job, you know, if you don't get an interview and you see a pattern, then do report it to one of the industry bodies. Actually just make your recruitment policies very, just, just have a policy to take whole merit. Um, as I say, I love the blind CV idea because, people think that they can tell a lot about a person by their name, you know, but then how far do you go? There's a lot of work to be done.
• I found it fascinating. When I started working in a recruitment agency, I realised that actually that already meant that I was a couple of tiers above some other people and I couldn't quite figure that out cause we don't really have that New Zealand. New Zealand is genuinely a melting pot and New Zealand wouldn't have the population it does without, immigrants. And found it extraordinary in my first role in the UK, one of the things I would have to say is what their accent was and did they dress West end or city and we couldn't put them in that organisation because they've got an Essex accent. And I remember sitting and absolutely dumb founded thinking I don't, I didn't really understand what’s going on here. It took me a number of years to realise what people's prejudices actually were. And then a few more years to realise actually I can help fight that and I love it when someone will be on a call and say, oh, well of course, you know, people like us. And then what do you mean? What do you mean? People like us? 
• So it's it is about having the confidence in yourself. So certainly, the industry needs to do more to encourage ……. you know to actually join the PR industry. And then actually when you are in the agency or you're in the in-house, then the company themselves, they need to make sure that everybody is given exactly the same opportunities. That someone isn't given promotion because they're the ones that have spoken out in a meeting or they're the ones that have turned up in a smart suit and a Hermes scarf just because that's what their footsie 100 clients will want. Actually, just look beyond that, look beyond someone's appearance, look beyond everything. Can they do the job?
• Yeah, there is actually, I would say this is probably the easiest. This is probably the easiest question you've asked because I really only discovered over the last 15 years that actually the way I am is actually okay. I am enthusiastic. I am genuinely very happy. I don't take any rubbish. I won't deal with that behaviour. I won't stand for bad behaviour. I won't stand for various things. I can be very stubborn. I know, I know these things. I am not perfect. Like, like everybody, I am, I'm not perfect. But, for so long when I was younger, I felt so different and I was too smiley. I was too happy. Everyone around me just seemed to have a bit of a harder edge. I wasn't sort of hard enough. It was about 15, 20 years ago when one of my friends said to me, you do realise, people actually don't care what we do. They just want to spend time with you because they like spending time with you. And I realised that actually the qualities that I have, I should just embrace them. I shouldn't try and fit in anyone else’s mould. Yes, I have a lot to say, as you can tell, I have a lot to say, I will always put my point across. If someone says, has anyone got an opinion on this, I will generally have an opinion and I'm quite happy to share that opinion. I'm not a great one for silence and you know, I used to try and hide that. I still think, oh no, you can't always say anything. You can't always be the one actually. Do you know what, at the age of 47, I think that I have realised that actually, do you know what it's actually quirky. I don't mind being the person that is always enthusiastic. So to my younger self genuinely, I would say, just embrace who you are and embrace your quirks and just, just go with it. 
• As a woman we often question ourselves and we often say, Oh gosh, should I be here? Should I, should I be in this position? Should I be leading this meeting? Should I be actually talking to my client like that. As for being a woman, it's been really interesting because I would say that I haven't had too much of a, of an issue with being a woman and, you know, being free to speak my mind. However, there have been roles that I've had, that it's been what I would call a bit of a boys' club. And if you weren't going with them out drinking all night and to various establishments and all the rest of it. If you weren't doing that, then actually the next day, when it came to picking a team for a project, then you probably weren't, you weren't even in the mix or, you know, we didn't want to give that to you because you seem like, you know, you seem stressed at the moment and you've got quite a lot on your plate. Well, okay. You would, you wouldn't say that to a man. We were starting to work for Kantar and in Kantar there are some truly inspirational senior women working there. And I realised that actually they didn't need to go out all night every night and be one of the boys. They could just put their points to the cross, they will listened too. But it was a real culture thing as well. The culture has to be there. I have at times gone back and I've either spoken to senior woman who I've known in the industry and ask them for advice but the main thing I would say is that if you, in your gut, if you feel something is bad behaviour than it probably is bad behaviour. One of my colleagues, somebody who had a very short-lived career at somewhere where I worked said to me once, and why are my jobs always get done last? And I said, well, you need to look at how you speak to people. I said, if you just send an email going, I need this done by the day. And, you know, it doesn't matter how junior the person is doing it. They have an option of whether to do my job first or yours. Do you think they're going to do my job first? When I go, hi, how's your day going? I really appreciate it. When you have a moment, if you could get this done. Its’ simple, things like that. 
• That was actually a really difficult question. What inspires me, is to work very, very hard to keep my mental health in check. So I walk for miles every day. I love looking at trees and being in nature. I am also really, really inspired by seeing people grow. People I've encouraged on the way I've worked with so many people over the years that have lack confidence and I love now being in a meeting with some of those people that I met 10-12 years ago, who now sort of stand-up meetings and go, ……..… No, that's not right and then that really inspires me because it shows me that actually, do you know what I'm doing is okay. As I've mentioned before been really inspired by some fantastic senior woman at Kantar, you don't need to be one of the boys in order to proceed. I'm really inspired by women, who have not listened to anyone telling them they can’t. 
• I’m, inspired by Alison Clark. I'm inspired by Claire Parsons. These two women are women who have going out of their way throughout their careers, who have reached the highest position anyone can reach in an agency. They have never, ever, ever lost their human touch. They always make time to speak, to everybody, to actually show proper leadership skills.It would be remiss of me as a Kiwi, not to mention, Jacinda Ardern as well. She is incredibly inspiring and I love the fact that there is a Kiwi woman on the international stage being held up as a great example, one of the great examples of a female leader. She attended a state school. She did go to university. But you know, she was young, she was pregnant and got married and she became prime minister. Now that could probably only happen at the moment somewhere like New Zealand. But I love the fact that that is actually now going to have other countries, sort of look at that or other women look at that and be like, oh yeah, hang on a sec. I can do that too. That one of the main things I love about her is that she lets her personality shine through in everything she does. So whether that's her being smiley and explaining why she's done a certain thing or shown incredible compassion at it awful events that had happened in New Zealand. She's just truly inspirational and I just will watch everything that she does.
• With black lives matter, you know, our CEO stood up and said, look, I know I've done a lot. But I know I could do a lot more. It’s a very brave thing to say. I like the fact that people are saying, yeah, we do, we do have an issue and we do have a disparity with pay, with leadership positions. But I do think that, the first thing that any company should do is they should just take a long, hard look at themselves and be totally truthful. I have been a judge on PRCA awards since the year dot on diversity. I'm always in one of the agency categories. So one of the agencies the year categories and I have always been astounded at the diversity question. When the question is, tell us how diverse your agency is? We have two women on the board and three people from a BAME backgrounds what does that mean? That, that doesn't mean anything. What are those people doing? Are they on the board?, it's a real soap box moment for me and you know, people like to think that they're ticking the black box, but actually, is it, you know, has it genuinely being someone who needed help or is it someone who would have got there on their own in any way. 
• Organisations need to be so very aware that for 47-year-old women in a house in Kingston with, lots of parks and my own room to work in everyday, is very very different to someone else who has perhaps flat sharing, is younger and in their first position, they're not getting that networking from an office environment. And my one to ones with my team, with my direct reports, probably half of it is not spent on work-related half of it is. Tell me how you are? And I just listen. I listen to them telling me about what's happening with their family, with their grandparents, with their partners, volunteer work they are doing. All youngster’s volunteer now. I have been blown away by the stories I've heard, honestly blown away. But we need to, we need to really, really listen. We need to listen to our teams and you know, are they struggling and there's different ways of asking them, but you know, how you, how are you finding it? Have you got outside today? We need to make sure that that people are okay. Once we can start mixing again, I think, we are going to have to make a real effort to travel and see our teams as well. Just to check in and see how they're doing. But I think it's going to be, it's going to be very difficult. And that's why, you know, every organisation needs leaders who are very comfortable in their own skin and very comfortable being very personal and giving a bit of themselves. So, you know, sometimes I'm having a really bad day. If I'm speaking to one of my team and they'll say, well, how you doing Pen? I quite happily say, I'm really frustrated today because of this, this has been happening and it makes them open up. Whereas if I sit there and say, oh, everything's...