Martin Roth, of the Ritsumeikan Center for Game Studies at Ritsumeikan University in Kyoto, joins me to discuss Homo Ludens, Johan Huizinga's 1938 study of play and culture. Martin and I discuss the way that Homo Ludens can be considered the first "game studies" book, but also all of the ways that it is more complicated and surprising than its reputation as a game studies classic attests.