This conversation between John Pinna and former CIA officer John Kiriakou delves into the significance of the private meeting between Donald Trump and Volodymyr Zelensky at the Vatican. Kiriakou, drawing on his intelligence and foreign policy background, analyzes the meeting in the context of past interactions between the two leaders, particularly a previous public dressing-down of Zelensky by Trump. Both Pinna and Kiriakou highlight the perceived value and return to direct diplomatic engagement, a departure from recent trends. The interview discusses the unpredictability of Trump's approach, the changing political landscape within the Republican party regarding foreign intervention, and the potential implications of direct talks with adversarial nations, using examples like Iran and North Korea. They also touch on the historical use of unconventional "back channels" in U.S. foreign policy and the challenges of navigating bureaucracy and ingrained perspectives within intelligence and foreign policy institutions. The conversation ultimately underscores the importance of direct communication, even with adversaries, to enhance strategic interests and overcome limitations posed by reliance on traditional, potentially outdated, information sources and approaches.

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