Has the debate on immigration been damaged by people too easily resorting to calling out racism? Or is it precisely racism that is at the heart of hostility towards immigration and contemporary white nationalism? Eric Kaufmann, Professor of Politics at Birkbeck University of London, has argued in a recent report for Policy Exchange that there is a distinction between racism and what he calls 'racial self-interest'. The argument has proved controversial. One critique, Dr Garvan Walshe, CEO of Brexit Analytics and columnist for Conservative Home, joins this podcast episode to discuss what racism is and what its role in the immigration debate is.