In this episode, I speak with Dr. Espen Stabell, philosopher at the Western Norway University of Applied Sciences (HVL) and NTNU — and my PhD supervisor — about the ethical dimensions of deep-sea mining.We trace the foundations of environmental philosophy and how environmental ethics emerged as a response to growing ecological awareness in the 1970s. We discuss what moral philosophy can actually contribute to contemporary debates about resource use, and how frameworks like ideal and non-ideal theory shape what counts as a “reasonable” decision in the real world.The conversation moves from abstract questions of value — what does it mean to say nature has intrinsic worth? — to the practical difficulties of making decisions amid uncertainty, plural values, and competing interests.

Takeaways

* Deep-sea mining brings to the surface ethical questions that go far beyond technology or economics.

* Ideal theories describe what a perfectly rational or just world would do; non-ideal theories help us act within the constraints we actually face.

* Clarifying moral concepts like welfare and intrinsic value is essential before we can make coherent policy recommendations.

* Ethical pluralism matters: reasonable people will disagree, and durable decisions depend on institutions that can hold that disagreement productively.

Find Espen

Espen Stabell HVL profile – https://www.hvl.no/en/employee/?user=Espen.Dyrnes.Stabell

Research Gate Profile - https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Espen-Stabell/research

⏱️ Timestamps

00:00 — Introduction and why ethics keeps surfacing in deep-sea-mining debates04:50 — How environmental ethics began: Richard Routley’s “last man on Earth”15:00 — What philosophers actually add: clarifying contested concepts20:45 — The problem with using “intrinsic value” and “welfare” as plug-and-play terms31:30 — Hard choices and incommensurable values44:00 — Ideal vs. non-ideal theory: aiming for truth vs. acting in the real world1:05:00 — Why Espen grew more cautious about simple ethical recommendations1:18:00 — Pluralism, democratic deliberation, and rational institutions1:26:00 — Building decision frameworks that work under uncertaintyTheme mustic Tamarack by Jesse Matas

Links:

Espen’s thesis - Deep Sea Uncertainty: Studies in Environmental Ethics and Decision-Making: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336561671_Deep_Sea_Uncertainty_Studies_in_Environmental_Ethics_and_Decision-Making

Richard Routley - Is there a need for a new environmental ethic?:https://iseethics.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/routley-richard-is-there-a-need-for-a-new-an-environmental-ethic-original.pdf

Arguments from Need in Natural Resource Debates: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337285117_Arguments_from_Need_in_Natural_Resource_Debates

Why Environmental Philosophers Should Be “Buck-Passers” about Value: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355174932_Why_environmental_philosophers_should_be_'buck-passers'_about_value

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