Let us be clear: We love boundaries. Used when needed, they’re a healthy part of living a good life.

But, as with all good things, the pendulum might have swung too far in that direction.

A recent article that caught Rowan’s eye in Stylist magazine begs the question: Can setting too many boundaries make us lonelier? And if so, where’s the healthy medium?

On today’s episode of Unboxing It, Lara and Rowan—two authors and coaches who teach others about boundaries—tackle this tricky topic. Because, while setting limits is a good thing to do, setting too many could impede personal and relationship growth. And we don’t want that.

Have some thoughts on what we had to say? Drop us a line or leave us a comment. We love to hear from you! But don’t be rude (that’s a boundary).

Links

Stylist article (behind a paywall unfortunately)

Unboxing It episode on Being Late

Lara makes art - follow her on Instagram

Rowan is opening a coffee shop - follow it on Youtube

Transcript

(please not, these have not been edited for accuracy))

[00:00:00] Rowan: it’s very easy for our brains to come up with excuses not to push ourselves to do things sometimes, and the way to justify that sometimes can be, well, it’s a boundary for me, and that’s what we have to get really real with ourselves. Is this a boundary? And is it really serving me? ‘ Hey there. Welcome to this episode of Unboxing It. My name is Rowan

[00:00:51] Lara: and I’m Lara.

[00:00:53] Rowan: And today. Wow. We’ve got one that I’ve been wanting to talk about this for a while. I saw an article in Stylist Magazine. Now we will, of course, post this article, but it is behind a paywall. I have Apple News and it came up on Apple News, but I love the name of it.

It says, sorry I can’t come to your party. I’ve got boundaries.

[00:01:16] Lara: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:19] Rowan: And after that it says We proudly prioritize self-care over commitments to others, but is an overzealous approach to boundaries only making us lonelier stylist goes behind the lines and it just goes from there. But I think that covers what we wanna talk about today, which is we are both people who have helped other people.

Figure out what healthy boundaries are and create those and hold them when needed. And there’s another side to that. Like there is like anything like too much of a good thing maybe, or you know, is there too much of a good thing when it comes to boundaries? What do you think, Lara?

[00:02:03] Lara: Well, I think sometimes part of it is .

Boundaries aren’t what we think they are. Right. We might say like, oh, this is a boundary, but really it’s just you shutting down what is happening in life. I think there’s a balance in figuring out. What is a boundary? What is what you want your life to look like? What is what you want your life goals to be?

And putting those together and understanding that none of them live alone in a silo like they have to be interconnected for it to work properly. we are not setting boundaries that are then gonna mean nothing else in our life works. We need them to work together.

And I think that’s part of what’s. Not always working for people. I mean, including myself.

[00:02:49] Rowan: I saw a young, Gen Z influencer talk about this again this morning and I was like, yes, this is absolutely what we need to be talking about because the young people are starting to talk about this. I think our generation was really good at teaching our kids and the younger people in general.

That we let ourselves be walked over too much. We people pleased too much. as a general rule, we did not prioritize ourselves, our rest, our peace enough, and that you shouldn’t do that because it’s gonna lead to burnout and resentment and all these other things.

I am a hundred percent in favor of. Figuring out what works for you, but it’s been taken to an extreme and confounded with other things mixed in with other things. And it is now harming friendships it’s now harming relationships. It is now. Preventing relationships even from getting started sometimes, because people will say, these are my boundaries.

My boundary is that if I don’t feel like going out, I’m not gonna go out. my boundary is if somebody doesn’t meet these 15 qualities on a first date, I’m not gonna have another date with them. you know, or Somebody’s friend will do something that hurts their feelings one time, and then all the other friends will be like, you need to break up with that friend.

you know, that’s crossing your boundaries. You need to just walk away. And so there’s no room for growth in that friendship. It just doesn’t get another chance. And so I saw this Gen Z person. Talk about how lonely they had become because they had subscribed to this boundaries and myself above all philosophy at the expense of their social life, the romantic life, and.

I felt really bad for them. I’m glad they’re figuring it out. They’re still really young, right? So like a young person can figure this stuff out and go, okay, what changes do I need to make? But what exactly did we do? I, I feel as somebody who has really talked a lot about boundaries, I feel bad about that.

[00:05:08] Lara: I think a lot of it that we really wanted everybody to know, whether it’s our kids or each other or our parents, like we’re telling everybody, you don’t get to tell me how I need to live my life. That’s where the, beginning is, right. You don’t get to tell me how to live my life.

You don’t get to tell me how to feel. You don’t get to tell me who I can be friends with. Like, it’s a lot of that’s enough. Stop trying to boss my life around. And I think that’s true. I think we need more of that. We need to notice when things aren’t what we want and what we’ve been told to want.

And we need to not just say yes to everything because we don’t wanna rock the boat. We don’t need to do things that we’re not interested in, just because that’s a good career. Like I think all of that is still true.

[00:05:57] Rowan: Yeah.

[00:05:58] Lara: But the side that becomes too much, the side that creates loneliness is, if you don’t like it, don’t do it.

And I think that there are times where we need to do things that we don’t like or that we don’t feel like doing or that are uncomfortable. I think a lot of the growth that has helped me get to where I am in my life required. Me to get uncomfortable, I needed to say, I’m gonna come out of my little bubble and do something that I’m not super comfortable with because it’s gonna help me grow into the next version of myself.

But if I was like, I don’t like that, I’m not doing it. Every time I got uncomfortable, every time I was like, eh, I don’t like it. There’s a lot of things I wouldn’t have experienced.

[00:06:41] Rowan: Yeah. And I think that where that line is is different for every person.

But I went to see an osteopath for the first time last week, and I’ve been having this hip pain for a long time, and she’s like, yeah, you have bursitis.

explain to me what the bursa is and how it gets inflamed and, that it doesn’t respond well to stretching. Bursus do not like to be stretched very much. And so I said, well, I do stretching though. I like to do yoga and there’s a lot of good reasons for me to stretch. She was like, absolutely, but don’t do it if it hurts.

Like you. Don’t lean into a deep stretch if you feel this flaring up, you have to stop. You push it a little bit and then you stop. I think that’s a really good analogy for. Things that make us uncomfortable. I can’t speak for everybody. I’m like you though.

If I did not push myself in those moments of discomfort, I would not grow as a person. I am a much better person because I have made myself uncomfortable. I have found myself uncomfortable and said, I’m gonna do it anyway. Now, that does not mean. Something dangerous, it does not mean something that is going to harm me.

Right? And this is where nuance is very important. I think it’s really easy in these discussions to forget nuance and unfortunately that is just a problem in general these days. You just have to look at the way our world is. And you can see that a lot of people are not living in nuance land. They’re living way over here.

They’re living way over there, and it’s very black and white and there is no gray that is hurting us, and it hurts us in discomfort too. It is such a wonderful thing to be able to tell our kids or the younger generations or our friends or whoever it might be. You know, listen to your gut. If something’s making you really uncomfortable, it’s okay to say no.

Yeah, absolutely it is. But like you were saying, there are life goals as well, and if my life goal, one of them is I don’t wanna be lonely. let’s say I am a kid on campus and it’s my first time on campus and I am very uncomfortable with the idea of like going to the rec room and hanging out with people and meeting new people there.

Like the idea just fills me with anxiety. But if my life goal is I wanna make some friends and I want to have a good, positive experience here. Then stopping and going, well, that’s my boundary. I’m uncomfortable, so I’m just gonna stay in my dorm room is not gonna serve me long term. It might make me feel better in the moment, but long term is gonna make me lonelier.

And that’s what we’re finding in a lot of these studies that are coming out on loneliness is that form of rigidity, social rigidity is deeply impacting people. When it comes to feeling alone and disconnected in the world.

[00:09:45] Lara: Yeah, and Think it’s gotten worse since COVID, but I don’t like going out very much. I used to be, when I was in my twenties, I was going out all the time. I loved going out. and the older I got, the less I wanted to do it, and now I. Honestly, it becomes like this little dream I like to have about my little like hut in the middle of the woods where nobody ever talks to me again.

Right. Like, there’s just like moments where that, doesn’t that sound lovely? I know it wouldn’t sound lovely to everybody, but to me there are moments right now where I was like, just nobody ever talked to me again.

[00:10:18] Rowan: No, I get it. I get it.

[00:10:19] Lara: and so I find it harder to go out. The older I get the, harder I find transitions like, just the act of getting ready to go out and then going out is the hardest hurdle for me.

And so if I gave into that, if I was just like, I don’t like it, I don’t wanna do it, I’m not gonna do it, I’m just gonna spend more time at home, I would be a lot lonelier and I am actively making an effort to do it anyway. A lot of the time, right, like I’ve been signing up to things, I’ve got my line dancing class tonight.

Do I feel like going line dancing right now? Like, not even a tiny little bit, but. Am I gonna be happy that I went? Yes. If I keep going to this thing, and I hate it every time, I’m not gonna keep going. But do I let just the amount of, like, I don’t really wanna go, mean don’t do what you don’t wanna do, Lara, and then stop.

No. It’s a balance between figuring out what truly is uncomfortable. So I like your analogy with the stretching because if there’s a pull, you’re okay If it hurts. Something’s wrong, and I think that that’s, one of the things that we can look for. Like what is it like? It’s like, ugh, ugh, I don’t really like it.

That’s more of a pull if you’re like, I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. That’s pain.

[00:11:36] Rowan: Let’s talk for a moment too about the idea of toxic relationships, because I think. This term is getting thrown around a lot right now. Now I believe that there are plenty of relationships that would be classified as toxic.

I have certainly. Contributed to those relationships and experienced those relationships. And the only way for that relationship to stop hurting me was for it to end. Right. And I’m not just talking romantic relationships, I’m talking about friendships and sometimes family relationships. but I think we’ve gone from.

You should put up with this person because they’ve been your best friend forever. Or you should put up with this person because it’s your mother, or it’s your father, or it’s your brother or whoever. , We’ve gone from, well, of course you would never walk away because this is a loved one.

So you just figure out ways to deal with it and try and make it work to the best of, your ability to. You know, you really don’t need to be there anymore. You could just leave if you wanted to, and if it’s making you unhappy, you should walk and. I think sometimes that is absolutely the case, especially and always if it is very abusive.

Like there’s no question. An abusive relationship is an abusive relationship and it is harmful. And if there is no ability to work through that, especially if it is making it very dangerous for you, you should not be there. And I will say that to anyone. I’ll scream it from the rooftops, if a relationship is chronically harming you, even if it doesn’t.

qualify as abusive and no matter what you do, it’s not getting better. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, setting those boundaries or walking away entirely, that is the way to do things. But I have also seen situations where. Somebody says, yeah, I have a friend who just flakes out on me a lot. And, that’s just really toxic.

It’s really toxic that, they don’t show up on time. It’s really toxic that, they break plans at the last minute and, so I’m just not gonna be their friend anymore. And I think if we do that. know there’s gonna be people who are gonna come at me and be like, well, you know, you have to do that sometimes.

Okay, that’s cool. But I guess what I’m trying to say is, at what point is it toxic versus at what point do we go? Well. you know, nobody’s going to be perfect. And, what I’m trying to say is I worry that if something isn’t perfect, and that is our reason for not pursuing it. We will in fact continue to be lonely and that is heartbreaking.

[00:14:28] Lara: Yeah. Well, you first brought up this topic, or you mentioned it when we did the episode on being late, and I think that that’s the perfect example with, some people being I won’t accept somebody being late, it’s not respectful, shutting them down. Is it toxic? Like all of those kinds of things. That’s one of those example with are you actually experiencing something terrible where somebody’s being really awful to you and that you need to cut them out? Or is it something different and maybe we reconsider what’s happening.

And I think it is figuring out. The nuance, it is figuring out like what is worth holding strong for and what isn’t really that big of a deal. Again, knowing everybody’s, whatever that is, not big of a deal is different. But if we come back to that stylist article, which I haven’t read because it is behind a paywall for me, What reasons would there be to not go to a party? Because boundaries, and I think there are some valid ones, right? So if you’re like, I have been out every night this week. I am feeling really, really worn out. I know people would like me to be there, but like, I can’t do it again. I’m tapped out.

And I have decided in my life that when I feel like this, I need to say no to things. . I think that’s a valid reason to not go to a party, but I imagine that’s not the only reason people are using when they’re saying, I have boundaries.

[00:16:01] Rowan: I can think of another good reason, you know, maybe if there was somebody there, like, an ex or, an ex friend or you knew somebody was going to be there.

and it was going to make the whole night just really awful. There are two ways to go about that. One is, I’m gonna step away from that and not go tonight. Maybe it’s really fresh, maybe you’re just not mentally up to it, right? I mean, there’s lots of reasons for that, and certainly, you know, no judgment.

And then the other thing might be, you know what? I don’t wanna have to avoid this person the rest of my life, so I’m gonna push myself. Through that uncomfortableness. Right? And just go anyway and do it. But also it’s okay to have some boundaries around what constitutes saying yes to a night out.

I know for me, I have boundaries around social media use. I have a list and I know these are the reasons I’m going to be on social media and anything else is not serving me. And adds nothing to my life. And so I’m not gonna do that. And that’s because I’ve already played that game for years and years where I did those things and I learned that those things just exhaust me and stress me out.

So, because I’ve done that enough and I’ve known that like I’m not gonna grow from this. you know, if I just reply to troll comments, if I go seeking out drama, if I spend too much time online, if I’m seeking validation online, like those sorts of things just don’t serve me.

I’ve done them enough to know that there’s no amount of growing or anything positive I’m gonna get out of it, so I’m not gonna do it. I think the same can be applied sometimes where it’s like. You know, if you have really bad knees, hiking’s not gonna be for you probably, right?

So even if people that you like are gonna go hiking, even if it’s a great way to meet new people, maybe that’s not your scene and that’s okay. Or if there’s a group of people that go to this thing that you’re really interested in and you really don’t, vibe with them. Like you just don’t, no matter what, they’re just really not your people.

And you’ve tried that. I think it’s okay to skip that one. Or you really like your friend, but you know that their group of friends that doesn’t involve you, you just really don’t like them at all. I think that’s okay. Like it’s okay to have some things, but I think what this article’s trying to say is that it’s very easy for our brains to come up.

With excuses not to push ourselves to do things sometimes, and the way to justify that sometimes can be, well, it’s a boundary for me, and that’s what we have to get really real with ourselves. Is this a boundary? And is it really serving me? ‘cause a boundary’s supposed to protect us. So not just in the short term, like Yeah, no, I just don’t really feel like getting out my pajamas.

Okay. sometimes, okay, that’s all right. But if we’re doing that a lot, like a lot, a lot, in the long term, people are inviting us out a lot less, and we’re really starting to feel closed off from the world. Is that boundary as we call it, is that really helping us? So that’s where that nuance is, and it’s going to be different for everybody.

[00:19:20] Lara: Yeah, we’ve got the push and pull, right? Like we’ve got what makes us uncomfortable, what we don’t wanna do. I think a boundary generally is something that is pre-thought out, right? So it’s not like in the moment I don’t want to do something, somebody pushes me and I’m like, this is a boundary I’m putting up.

Like, maybe. But most of the time it’s something that you’ve thought about and you’re like, this is a really big deal in my life, and so I need to create this boundary. And. I do think it gets overused as a result, and I do think that we need to do a little bit of reflection on what we want. So not only is it, you know, where I was saying we need to get a bit uncomfortable, but we need to be willing to get uncomfortable to grow.

but what do you want out of life? If you’re looking to have a great group of friends?

Is the boundary never going out, or is it like I need to look in different places because the people I’m friends with are not really the ones I like. Again, that’s not a boundary. That’s like, turns out you don’t like the people you know, and you need to do something different to find people you do like.

Right? Like that’s not a boundary. It’s a different thing.

[00:20:28] Rowan: Yeah.

[00:20:29] Lara: So how do we. Decide. I mean, some of it is, it’s part of this feeling of what do I want? Taking time to think about it. So as coaches, I think that’s a lot of what we’re actually doing. People don’t come to me, generally speaking, with the goal of setting boundaries.

The goal is to feel better about something. The goal is to. Whether it’s business or life, feel better about how things are going and to look through what it is that they want to achieve. Are they looking for more ease? Are they looking for more connection? Are they looking to make more money? Whatever it is that they’re doing?

When you have a sense of where you’re trying to go, then you can start to figure out what you need to do and you can start to figure out what you don’t want to do to get there and what your rules and. Guidelines are gonna be to get there, and that’s where I think this comes in, right? It’s not just about don’t let people tell you what to do.

It’s about. Being really intentional with your life. And I think that that’s one of the best words that covers so many things when I talk to people is be intentional. Don’t let life happen to you. Don’t let the world tell you how you need to live life, but be intentional about what you want and you don’t want, and then start to work on figuring out what you need to do to get there.

[00:21:55] Rowan: Yeah. And I know a lot of people are saying how lonely they are and that’s why all these studies are coming up, right? Because there is a lot of talk about how we are more connected than we ever have been in the sense that I can text you, Lara, four and a half hours away and you can text me back and , we can have these podcasts and go online and like there’s all these different ways where we can talk to people, but.

We’re not necessarily engaging in meaningful ways out in the world. I also think that one of the things I’d really like to remind people is. Nobody’s perfect.

[00:22:36] Lara: What?

[00:22:37] Rowan: Yeah, I know. I know. Even me, even, honestly, especially me, the amount of people when I had my health scare a few weeks ago, gosh, it hasn’t even been a few weeks, but It’s been like two I think since I found out. I don’t in fact have cancer, which is fantastic, but I was really shut down for a good month there and people would text me or email me and I was dropping balls everywhere. I was hardly able to respond to anyone. It took all of my energy just to get through a day while I was waiting to find out just how my life was gonna go and.

I’m so glad that nobody got upset with me because I know that that could have come across in various ways of people. Rowan doesn’t care about me. Rowan’s being disrespectful. Rowan doesn’t wanna do anything. Rowan has moved on with his life because I didn’t tell a lot of people what was going on.

I didn’t wanna have to explain the unknown to everybody. I wanted to wait for answers and then figure out what to do from there. And if anybody got upset with me, who cares about me? Nobody showed it. And I’m so grateful, and that’s a lesson that I’m taking. Along with me into the future. I mean, I kind of knew that already.

I’ve always given people a lot of grace when it comes to not getting back to me about something or, ghosting me for a while or whatever, because I’ve realized that we all have lives and that everybody’s life is complex in its own way and stressful in its own way. And if. People expected perfection from me.

If one of their boundaries that they said boundaries and air quotes perhaps, or boundaries, real boundaries. And that’s entirely up to individuals. But if one of theirs was, people need to get back to me within 24 hours, you know, or whatever it might be. I would’ve lost a lot of friends, you know, , and not because I was trying to be toxic, right?

Or trying to be disrespectful, however you wanna phrase that. But really just because I was struggling so, so hard, so just remember when we are reading this onslaught of messaging around. Your friends should treat you this way, and people who care about you will always treat you this way. there is nuance in that too.

And yeah, nobody should treat you terribly. That’s unacceptable. people should not be going outta the way to hurt other people. And obviously we do have to set some boundaries to protect ourselves, but I have seen a lot of articles like that where it’s like, Does your friend take forever to get back to you?

Are they really a friend? You know, that sort of thing. And it, doesn’t mean they don’t care about you. It usually doesn’t mean that, it usually means that they’re going through something and instead of getting upset with them, it might be good to say, Hey, I haven’t heard from you in a while.

Are you doing okay? I’m worried about you.

[00:25:40] Lara: Yeah. I think another way to talk about boundaries in this. Conversation is what is a non-negotiable for you? And I think that there are a few things that are non-negotiable for me. I can’t make everything non, non-negotiable. Like if I said it’s non-negotiable about everything to people, like first of all, nobody would want to be friends with me ‘cause that sucks.

[00:26:03] Rowan: Yep.

[00:26:03] Lara: But also that doesn’t give me wiggle room. It doesn’t give me the ability to figure out what’s going on. And I think there should be some things that are really, important to you and that you’ve figured out what those are, and they are non-negotiable. And sometimes we just need to go with the flow.

Sometimes there are things that we don’t love that we do. As long as it doesn’t hurt, like I don’t want anybody thinking I’m suggesting go be miserable because that’s how you grow. no. Right? Like we’re not talking about being miserable. We’re talking about the little things that, does that matter as much as you’re saying it does, or will letting some of this sign of slide, letting some of this run its course is going to help you get to the next step of what you want in life.

But then you need to know where you’re trying to go, right? Like that’s part of goal setting as a business coach. That part of my life as a business owner and helping other businesses figure out their goals. It’s not something people do well because people set goals that are really, in my opinion, not goals.

They’re just like actions they wanna do. To me, a goal is about thinking about what is meaningful to you? What is like the overall meaningful outcome that you want? And I think we should be doing that business or no business to figure out what we are trying to achieve in our lives.

[00:27:27] Rowan: When I’m setting a boundary, I like to ask myself why I am setting it, because the answer will tell me whether or not I should look at that further.

So if, for example, my boundary is I will not tolerate people yelling at me. I will not engage in that conversation. If they start to yell, I will walk away. Well, that’s directly related to the trauma that I’ve experienced in my own life, and a massive feeling of unsafety like just not feeling safe is unsafe.

A word. It’s word now,

[00:28:02] Lara: why not?

[00:28:03] Rowan: Sure, sure. But like a feeling of not being safe and a feeling of the conversation devolving to a point where we can’t have a conversation at all because tempers are too flared. And so that’s when I will end that conversation and resume it possibly, depending on what kind of relationship it is, if it’s a stranger encounter or if it’s somebody that I am, in a relationship with,

I will come back to that at a later time when we are more level headed. But if my boundary is something like, again, I’ll go back to this example ‘cause I used it before. If my friend doesn’t text me back within 24 hours, they’re not my friend. What is that about? And maybe somebody has a really good reason and that’s important to them, and that is non-negotiable.

And I’m not gonna tell you what should or shouldn’t be for me, if that were my thing, it would be directly related to my fear of abandonment. Because I have been abandoned before in that sense. I’ve had people just up and leave. you know, my own father left when I was, very young and I never got to know him.

And , it sort of sets the stage for feeling unwanted. So at that point, if I know that that’s actually what’s going on, then I’m making. What’s happening inside me about someone else. And so maybe at that point, two things. One, I have a conversation with people I love and say, Hey, by the way, if you can get back to me more quickly, that’s fantastic.

because it helps me to know, because I have a certain attachment style or whatever that I’m, you know, gonna feel safer and it’s gonna help us in our relationship, so great. But also it allows me to do a bit of work on me and go, what’s actually going on is I don’t wanna feel alone and I don’t wanna feel like somebody doesn’t care about me.

So I. Maybe there’s some other ways that I can nurture myself and work on myself, , and so it really is , that why component is so important when it comes to those boundaries. For me, it is everything. If it is about safety, then that boundary is non-negotiable. Always, always, always, always.

If it is not about safety, that boundary may not. Need to be as rigid as it is.

[00:30:25] Lara: Yeah. we first brought this topic up during the, episode about lateness, and I happen to have today, the day that we’re recording this, just listen to that episode, so it’s very fresh for me. But one of the things that came up was this whole, it’s not actually about you.

So when somebody’s late, it’s not really that they’re trying to just be disrespectful to you. There’s times where it’s just not about you. There’s something else going on, and I think this is what we’re saying, right? Not everything that somebody does that sucks is disrespectful it’s not about you.

[00:30:58] Rowan: Yeah,

[00:30:59] Lara: It might suck, but it’s not necessarily specifically them trying to do something to you or not caring about you, and starting to think about that and knowing the distinctions can really help.

[00:31:12] Rowan: These are all things that I wish I had known in my twenties especially.

When I burned so many bridges and I did it because, you know, at the time. When I ended some friendships, I really thought that it was all them, right? They were doing this and I went to, drug and alcohol rehab when I was 14.

And so I grew up quite literally in self-help culture, which is not a bad thing. I learned a lot about myself, but. I think I also went to the extreme of this victim mentality where when people did things, I did make it about me. So if somebody didn’t get back to me, and when I said that about that fear of abandonment, like I don’t have that issue now, but I did, and texting wasn’t really a thing back then.

It wasn’t something that I engaged in anyway. It happened, but it wasn’t very common yet. But just, people not calling me or somebody forgetting my birthday , I remember just getting so hurt by that and making it all about me and.

I don’t think my expectations were necessarily fair a lot of the time. Sometimes I did have a friendship or some kind of relationship that really wasn’t healthy, and it wasn’t healthy in part because of me, but a lot of it was their behaviors and I had to let those go. But there were other times where I think that if I could go back and have a conversation with my younger self, I’d be like, Hey.

Give a little more grace because this person is figuring their s**t out too. You are, and they are. And so expecting perfection from somebody else when you yourself are not a perfect person, that’s a recipe for disaster. It’s unfair.

[00:33:11] Lara: Yeah, for sure. I think that ultimately, what I’m. Taking from this conversation, or what I’m hoping people take is that we need to remember that life is always changing, that we need to think about what works for us.

We don’t need to get stuck in. Ruts. We don’t need to get stuck in, I said this once, so I have to stick to it for the rest of my life. that we remember that not everything that happens is about us, or that people mean badly when they do things. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. And so it’s just about taking the time to say, if I’m not happy, is there anything I can do to change?

Not. Why does everybody suck in my life? Keep continuing to suck, but like what can I do to position myself in a way that I can go towards a goal I really want in a way that’s going to work for me?

[00:34:09] Rowan: The world right now is a very dark place for a lot of people. And I know I’m struggling with it, and I am one of the more positive people I know every day I have to.

Remind myself like, okay, you can get outta bed and find these moments of joy and try and bring these moments of joy to other people. And, I’m largely successful in that. But with a world this difficult already, it is really important not to make it harder on ourselves and not to allow that darkness to creep in too much, not allow that loneliness and the heaviness.

Of what’s going on. Keep us from that forward momentum. Keep us from going out and meeting new people, keeping us from trying new things. I know from firsthand experience, I am a trans man in 2025, a visible trans man in 2025. I know how hard it is to just leave the house sometimes, but. If I just stayed home all the time because this was my safe place, I wouldn’t get all the positive experiences.

I wouldn’t have met all the people that I meet. I wouldn’t be able to experience the joy. Like just walking down the street yesterday, my partner and I went to a farmer’s market and I said, stop. Look at these roses right here in somebody’s yard, like right by the sidewalk. I bet they smell beautiful, and we literally.

Two trans people stopped and smelled the roses.

And it was worth every second we took to do that. So I just don’t want to see anybody stop living because it all feels like too much. So push yourselves a little bit if you can. And when you can’t, that’s okay too. Cocoon. Cocoon. And have grace for the people in your lives because they’re all going through it in their own ways.

Whether they’re telling you or not. Everybody’s going through stuff right now. So if we could all just remember to be kind to ourselves and to each other. It makes such a big difference. Wow. I feel like a youth pastor right now. I’m, that’s me. You’re a trans guy, youth pastor. But seriously, just remember , These are the times when we grow in adversity. So, yeah, push yourself a little bit

[00:36:35] Lara: and if you are feeling lonely, think about the places that do feel good and think about how you can make sure you go there and you take the time, even when you’re uncomfortable to move forward there and come to the comments and tell us, what it is that you may be struggling with or what it is that has worked for you because we want to hear.

[00:36:56] Rowan: And what is the name of my church if I’m a youth pastor? Like, feel free to give me one ‘cause I, I can’t come up with one off the top of my head.

[00:37:05] Lara: Let’s hear it.

[00:37:06] Rowan: Thanks for joining us today.

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