Inside of us there are two wolves: One of them is trying to dominate the entire pack and the other stopped howling because they think they’re being too loud.

Society loves to keep us in check with the idea that we’re either “too much” of a good thing or not enough of it. We’re too fat or too thin. Too loud or too quiet. Refusing to age gracefully or running from our inevitable demise by using Botox.

Why does it do this? Because breeding insecurity in the average person creates insecurity, and that insecurity carries with it a level of control. If we feel bad about ourselves, we’re more likely to spend money on something that promises to fix it. If we stay quiet, we’re less likely to push back on authority. If we think we’ll never be good enough, there’s a vast array of self-help initiatives and self-medicating distractions to keep us focused on.

But what if we were just allowed to… be? Wouldn’t that be a game-changer?

In this episode of Unboxing It, Lara and Rowan talk about all the ways in which we’re taught (and even manipulated into) believing the truest version of ourselves isn’t just right.

And don’t even get Rowan started on the “perfect teeth” trend.

We hope you enjoy this one! Drop us a line, leave us a comment, and let us know.

Links

Unboxing It Episode 12 Confidence vs Arrogance

Lara makes art - follow her on Instagram

Rowan is opening a coffee shop - follow it on Youtube

Transcript

(Please note this are autogenerated and not edited)

00:00:00] Lara: you need this to be enough.

Oh, why do you want that? Don’t you feel okay with yourself? You should really get this. Like, it’s a constant push pull, push, pull that makes it really hard to ever feel okay with yourself.

Welcome back to unboxing It. I’m Lara.

[00:00:40] Rowan: And I’m Rowan.

[00:00:42] Lara: And today first of all, right off the bat, I’m gonna say I’m feeling like a lot of big feelings today, so we’re gonna see how that comes out. In terms of our conversation,

[00:00:52] Rowan: We spent, 45 minutes. Talking about big feelings before we hit record on this, so I think it’s gonna be a spicy one.

I’m excited.

[00:01:01] Lara: I just have big opinions today. But we’re gonna talk a little bit about that feeling of not feeling like you’re enough, but also maybe sometimes worrying that you’re being too much, where that comes from, why we worry about it so much. And then potentially we can talk about what to do about it at first, let’s see where we go.

[00:01:22] Rowan: Yeah. And who decided it anyway, that’s the other thing that I want to touch on. Like who decides if we’re too much or we’re not enough? What’s that based on? So yeah. Let’s dig into that one.

[00:01:32] Lara: Yeah. I think there are so many things we can talk about when it comes to this, but a lot of it is societal expectations of what we’re supposed to be.

And the fact that some of those expectations are very vague, like we don’t actually know specifically always what they are, which means that we never know if we’re actually doing well or doing badly, which means we can worry about both.

[00:01:59] Rowan: Lucky us.

[00:02:00] Lara: Woo.

[00:02:03] Rowan: It is true. I have spent so much of my life, especially when I was younger, but even still today, sometimes when I meet new people, when I share something or when people ask me what I do for a living, there’s always this juggling act that’s going on in my head where it’s like, did I overshare?

Did I brag? Maybe , did it come across as braggy when I talk about, , the accomplishments I’ve had in my life, or did I say something really awkward and now everyone’s judging me? it just is this social contract that I don’t think any of us really signed up for, but we’re in it and very, very few people don’t.

Subscribe to that contract. Don’t follow that contract. And often when they don’t follow it, there’s judgment associated with that and we all know it. So we’re all a little careful about what we say and do.

[00:03:02] Lara: Yeah, there’s the basics of what we might have grown up hearing that you shouldn’t be this or you shouldn’t be that.

And again, a lot of those things are just made up and they don’t need to be true. I think the idea of. Not being vain of not thinking too much of yourself is particularly Canadian, and I know I’ve heard it. I’ve seen it my whole life. Oh, don’t tell her she’s too pretty. She’s gonna get a big head.

Like you don’t want her thinking she’s too great. And then it’s backed up throughout life with people who are like, oh, did you see her? She thinks she’s hot. S**t.

[00:03:37] Rowan: Exactly. That. Or the complete opposite where it’s like. Why don’t you love yourself? You should find yourself attractive.

But don’t talk about that. You find yourself attractive. Never admit that to anybody, but Definitely feel it, but don’t walk around like you know that you are. , Or like, oh, you’re successful. Don’t talk about being successful. Talk about being successful because it helps other people.

No, no, no. Not like that. . Well, now you’re a jerk because you just made people feel bad that you have this level of success that they don’t. It is. I mean, yes. there are people who are absolute braggarts and we’ve all met them. And they drive us all crazy because their entire identity is attached to how much money they make or how attractive they are or whatever.

Right? But we’re talking, I think more about You can’t find yourself good looking because if you find yourself good looking, that’s too much. You can’t have. A home you’re proud of? Because if you brag about your home, or I should say, if you talk about your home, that can be seen as bragging.

There’s all these different things, but then there’s also the other side of it where we’re constantly told to be more confident, to be proud of ourselves. So, like, what is, this happy medium? Because I’m not sure I entirely know what it is.

[00:04:58] Lara: I don’t think it exists. I think we’ve been pushed in both directions so hard that there is no just Okay.

Because the just Okay. Would make life a little too simple. And everybody needs everybody. again mentioned, I’m a bit on a today, right? But society, the people out there want us working hard. They don’t want us thinking we have enough, but. They also wanna make sure you’re not so depressed.

You like don’t do anything. we need you to work, we need you to want more. We need you to think there’s possibility. Oh no, you haven’t achieved it yet. Simmer down, keep trying. because there is no, just yeah, you’ve achieved it. Like, I really don’t think there is. We had an episode already about arrogance versus confidence and I think, that’s an important topic, and I think we dug into confidence a bit there. Like we are not taught to be confident, but we are told to be confident and just doesn’t work in your brain. How are you supposed to not be confident and confident at the same time?

What are you talking about?

[00:05:59] Rowan: Well, I think one of the reasons why. We are told we must be confident but not taught. It is because if we are taught to actually be confident. We would question a lot of what is pushed upon us. I’m gonna give an example of this that’s going to show my age, but I remember when teeth whitening became a thing,

There was a time where suddenly if you had any teeth that were not bleached white. It was practically overnight that this concept came out that in order to have a nice smile, your teeth had to be pristine white, this unnatural shade of white that nobody has, like babies don’t even have that shade of white.

But that’s what we were taught, and suddenly everyone’s rushing out for tooth whitening toothpaste. special whitening services at the dentist. you know, whitening strips. It just went on and on and on and I wasn’t able to do that. And I remember it actually affected my confidence. I have a bridge that is set in my mouth at the front of my mouth, at the top from a car accident I had years ago, and it is the most natural shade.

Of white teeth that you can get. And I say natural shade because my teeth. Are naturally the lightest shade they can be without going in that super white direction. And suddenly that wasn’t enough. That was dirty, that was yellow, that was brown, that was gross. And it was a status symbol to have something lighter.

And now we’re seeing a reversal of that years later, like 20 years later or something. We are seeing people in Hollywood especially sort of rebel against this idea. So it, even comes down to tooth spacing where having these. Perfect rows of teeth were a big thing. Now they’re looking for actors who have imperfect teeth because it makes them more interesting.

It makes them more authentic looking. This is starting to happen. all of that to say if I had been truly confident. And not just told, I should feel confident if I had been taught to be confident in myself. I would’ve looked at that tooth whitening stuff and been like, eh, I don’t need it.

my teeth are fine the way they are. I’m now confident enough to think that I’ve been thinking that for a while, but back then I wasn’t. And if I had had any means to do it without completely replacing my teeth. I probably would’ve gone and done it. That industry has made a ton of money over the years for absolutely no reason, just because they were able to convince a bunch of people that they weren’t attractive enough unless they had their teeth whiter.

It’s wild to me. So that’s where I’m getting this idea that keeping us in this sweet spot of not feeling good enough. Once we start to feel better, pushing us back down is the way for society to keep humming if that society is capitalist.

[00:09:11] Lara: I agree. We could even expand on the teeth thing like how many people get braces just because their teeth aren’t perfectly straight.

Like to me, braces are, if your teeth are really like problematic, but some people it’s pushed on them if their teeth are not exactly perfect or the rise of veneers, , and if you really like that and you want that, that’s okay. It’s the whole, yeah. both sides of this, where it’s like you need this to be enough.

Oh, why do you want that? Don’t you feel okay with yourself? You should really get this. Like, it’s a constant push pull, push, pull that makes it really hard to ever feel okay with yourself.

[00:09:52] Rowan: Well, I mean, I say all of that about the teeth. As someone who just had gender affirming surgery, I just had top surgery, which for a trans man is usually a mastectomy.

So I had a mastectomy. I had nipple graft. I love the way my chest looks now. I’m so, so happy. It was worth the expense because I had to pay for part of it. It’s been worth the recovery. I’m like three weeks in now. I feel great. So no, I’m not saying in any way that if you are unhappy with something about yourself, you shouldn’t change it.

If you know that’s going to help you feel better because this has changed my life. But what I am saying is that just like the diet industry and just like. Creating these little worker bees that are going to, follow this path along to retirement because they’re being taught like you have to be successful and in order to be successful, you must follow these steps and rise through these ranks and achieve these financial milestones.

Or are you really enough? Like all of that is. A creation, it’s a manipulation and, and I’m not trying to sound like a, a conspiracy theorist, but when you pull it right back to who we are, we’re just animals really. Right? We’re just intelligent ish, depending on what choices we’re making, but we’re intelligent animals.

A lot of this has just been fabricated to. Create societies and people who will do certain things, spend money certain ways, spend time certain ways for a specific purpose. And so keeping us down is a way for that power over us to continue.

[00:11:35] Lara: Yes, and that’s where. This pulls into work. It pulls into looks, it pulls into personality, it pulls into everything.

And that’s why it’s so hard to ever feel like you’re enough and to worry that you’re too much at the same time. Like that’s why I thought this was such an interesting topic because, there are days where I. I think, oh, I’m certainly not enough. I haven’t done enough. I’m not trying hard enough. I don’t put in enough effort with my friends, even though I love them and I care about them, I don’t put in enough effort.

And then like within the same day, I’m like, oh my God, am I annoying that person by checking in with them too much or talking to them too much? I’ve sent all these messages. I don’t know if they wanna hear from me that much. There’s no. Winning because we’re battered with all these, this is what it means to be a good friend.

This is what it means to be a bad friend, but it’s never like black and white.

[00:12:30] Rowan: Yeah. This shows so much in parenting too, you don’t have to be a parent to see this. All you have to do is go online and you will see that parents who do it this way. Are wrong and parents who do it the complete opposite way are also wrong.

Right. And when my kids were younger, I remember, babies who were left to cry it out, sort of that sleep training thing that was still really popular. It’s less popular now. I didn’t do it but I remember the. Constant battle between those who sleep trained and those who did not, and both of them pointing fingers at each other about what terrible parents they were and how their children were gonna grow up damaged somehow.

It’s now been 20 something years since a lot of that happened. My eldest is 28 and he is very much a baby who co-slept, in our room until he could walk, and then was moved into his own room and he’s very much on par with all of his other peers who were sleep trained, right?

Like it didn’t really make as big of a difference as people thought, but. The more that those things happen, those debates, the more it fuels, insecurity and the more insecurity people feel about who they are or what they’re doing, and especially, how it’s affecting the people around them. The more that they’re going to go to any lengths they can to change that.

Is that buying a parenting book that somebody is selling? Is that, pulling extra hours at the office so they can get that promotion? Is that. Getting that box of hair dye because you started to see some grays in your hair and oh my goodness, you can’t look like you’re aging, Or is it reading a book about how to socialize? Because you always think you’re so awkward when maybe a lot of people don’t think you’re awkward, but you have convinced yourself that you are. I think that happens a lot too. So. I just wish there was a little more room for authenticity and figuring it out without all that judgment placed on ourselves and judgment placed on us by society.

[00:14:49] Lara: I think that comes down to the whole, there’s a right way and there’s a wrong way mentality, which I, don’t think that makes sense. We’re different. Different people like different things. Different people want to interact with people in different ways. We need all kinds of people to have an interesting world, right?

Like we want an interesting world. We do not want everybody to be the same. And yet the how should you be if I want to think that you’re doing well, puts everybody in a, this is how you all have to be the same kind of situation, and it’s okay. If you do things differently than other people, it’s okay if you don’t want what other people want.

It’s okay to have different kinds of friendships with different amounts of interaction and still think that they’re great friendships.

[00:15:44] Rowan: Yeah, I think about. Dating. I don’t, I’m not dating. I have a partner, but I have a lot of friends who have gotten divorced who are now dating , for the first time in forever.

And there’s all these rules and of course there should be rules around consent and that sort of thing. A hundred percent, don’t be creepy. And I’m sure you’ve seen this as well, but there’s this whole thing where it’s like, okay, I went on a date with this person.

Okay, well, don’t text them. Don’t text them. You don’t text, right? Don’t reach out. Give it at least three days or whatever it might be. And it’s like, it just feels so inauthentic to me. Now, maybe that’s how some people work, but who came up with this rule, right?

If I’m interested in somebody, I for sure want them to see who I am as a person right from the start. And if I am somebody who’s going to text you the day after our date to say, Hey, I had a really good time. I’d love to see you again. Or like, tell an inside joke that came up that night or whatever.

Like, that’s just who I am as a person. I’m gonna showcase that. I think it’s weird that, that we have such strict rules around these things because what is the alternative that we all play by the exact same rule book and then show them much later the type of person that we are. What’s the point of that?

[00:17:06] Lara: And I think it’s like mixing things up. I’ve heard that, you know, you gotta wait a few days rule forever because you don’t wanna seem too needy. You don’t wanna seem too keen.

[00:17:17] Rowan: Yeah,

[00:17:17] Lara: okay, but what if you just seem like you really like that person? Like that’s what that could be like. I’m messaging you right away because I like you, not because.

I need you to fill a hole in my heart that has been empty forever, and as soon as I talk to you again, you’re gonna be my whole world. And now you’re gonna have so much responsibility for my happiness.

[00:17:41] Rowan: Wow. I can totally see that happening though. that would be clear.

[00:17:47] Lara: I mean, you can, that’s not the only

thing that can happen, like it could just be like, Hey, I really like you. I’d like to see you again.

[00:17:54] Rowan: Yeah. I don’t understand why it’s bad to talk to somebody that you really like after you had. A date with them where you both seem to really enjoy yourself as far as you’re concerned, and maybe they tell you otherwise when you text them, no problem.

But it just seems like a form of manipulation, right? Like, oh, gotta play hard to get, now that I’m in Guy World, because I was in Girl World for a long time and I saw

like the,

women’s dating advice. Well now the social media algorithms see me as a guy.

So they’ve got me with all of the alpha male guys who are giving all their dating advice, which is really funny because I don’t know how many of them actually are dating, like how many of them actually have a successful relationship, but they are. Apparently making bank off of telling you what to do and what not to do.

[00:18:45] Rowan: I’m reading this. And I’m like, do you really think that’s gonna work for women? Do you really think that a woman is going to be happy that you didn’t text her for a week after you had a date with her? And then you just show up, you’re like, Hey, what’s up? Yeah, you wanna go grab a bite sometime?

Next month.

[00:19:05] Lara: But then again, that’s where people are waking up. And there’s issues though I think it’s in Korea, where the government is desperate for women to. Consider getting married and having children because they’re all like, you know what, I’m out.

[00:19:19] Rowan: Exactly. Honestly, who can blame them?

Because there’s this whole , pull towards toxic masculinity. All these young guys are like, yeah, I’m gonna be this, really successful guy who puts work first. And I’m gonna have really nice clothes and a nice watch and a great pad, and I’m gonna have women on the side.

It’s like, dude, you are not the catch you think you are. But this is where we get sucked into this idea of. I’m not enough, so I have to be these things. ‘cause you can see it in this sort of toxic alpha male culture. You can see that these men are really struggling with feeling confident.

And why do I say that? Because it took me a really long time to feel confident. But I do now through and through, I feel I’m a very confident person and I don’t. Believe any of the BS that they’re telling me, even though I am like this shorter, older, chubby dude. I feel really comfortable and I don’t make a ton of money, and I’m all right with that too.

I’m really confident in my own accomplishments, in the way I look, in the way I feel, and especially in the way I treat others. and yes, there are definitely times where I go, Ooh, yeah, did I overshare? Oh, I think I had like three beers and I overshared there, that definitely does happen.

and I said that right at the beginning. It is a thing that happens, but overall, I’m confident enough. Not to have to feel like I have to prove myself successful or enough for somebody else and not, feel the need to downplay anything that I am for somebody else because their reactions to who I am that’s coming from them.

that’s what I wish everyone could realize. You know, people are like, oh, you know, I go out and I try to meet friends or, I feel so awkward. I feel like people are judging me. Well, first of all, they’re probably not judging you nearly as much as you think they are. I think that’s number one.

And also. There’s a whole group for you out there somewhere. There are people out there who are going to just think you are the best person when they meet you. That’s my person. That’s my person. I want you in my circle. I want you in my life, Just as you are. Which is amazing. But you have to

own who you are, I think first to find them.

[00:21:48] Lara: Yes. And if these people. Who are judging you aren’t your people. That’s okay because they’re not your people. When we try, and this is certainly a thing, we try and want everybody to like us, if I don’t feel like everybody likes me, it feels like I’ve done something wrong, but there is not a single way I can be that will make everybody happy, but I can sure spend most of my life trying anyway,

and it’s. Tiring. It’s exhausting and it’s how you can end up feeling like too much and not enough in the same five minutes.

[00:22:22] Rowan: Yeah. I had somebody ask me once, on threads to everyone, how did you grow your audience and like, what special tips would you give others? And people are giving all this advice.

I really thought about it. I have over 50,000 followers on threads now, and when I was on Twitter back in the day, I used to have over a hundred thousand, and my answer is I did nothing. I literally just showed up as myself. I show up as myself. I post things that are authentic to me. I do not have a schedule for posting.

I do not Time posts. Everything I post comes from the heart, and I try not to be a jerk. When I make a mistake, I own it. That’s it. That is the entire thing, and people don’t like to hear that because they want this magic formula. The magic formula is I’m just myself and I don’t think I’m anyone special.

Again, I’m not downplaying who I am. I am just myself, just like everybody else’s themselves. And I think when you show up as yourself and you keep showing up and you interact and you connect with other humans, whether that is online, whether that is offline, whether that is in the workplace, whether that is at school, whether it is at your local coffee shop, wherever it is.

You show up as yourself. You bring your whole self to the table. You will find people who really like that.

[00:23:51] Lara: And that is something, right? Like you’re like, I did nothing. But you did do something. Whether you were able to do it naturally without effort or not. What you did was you created a space where it was okay to be yourself.

You were relatable, you shared stories that made people feel understood. And that is something, right? That is something. That’s important. That is something that people want and it’s something that other people don’t feel safe to do because they think they need a persona. They think that they need, some kind of very special schedule for anybody to see them and find them.

But really at the heart of it is the heart of who we are and being able to connect with people.

[00:24:40] Rowan: Well, and I also think the difference is, I think I could have tried, I think I could try and I could get many more followers than I have, but followers have never really been that important to me. What matters to me is building community.

That’s at the heart of everything I do, from the books that I’ve written to the coffee shop I’m opening. Like everything that I do is really just about community creating safety.

I think the biggest thing, it’s not the number of people you know, or the number of people who follow you or whatever it might be. So we could relate this to social media or we could relate this to just real world experience. Whatever it is, it’s not the quantity, it is the quality. My friends in real life, they’re really good friends and I keep them close and I love and my followers online.

These are people that engage a lot and I engage with them as well. And we have a back and forth and we have, I mean, you can argue it’s a parasocial relationship because it is a parasocial relationship, but it is also a meaningful. Relationship to me, I really value having that community. It means a lot.

And so it really is about knowing who you are, accepting who you are, because I’m my own little quirky self, just like everybody else is. Then just running with it. Like, just run with that s**t. just be it. And I’ve said things like this before and I’ve had people say, well, you know, you could say that Rowan, because you’re very personable and charismatic, or whatever they might say, right?

But I used to be a shy little wallflower because I really didn’t like myself. And the more that I realized that I was worth liking. The more I was able to express who I am. So what you’re seeing now is just a work in progress. It wasn’t always like this. I cared so deeply what other people thought of me.

I wanted everybody to like me. I worked really, really hard and it would devastate me if I had a room full of people. You know, say I was at a family gathering and. There were eight people there that I got along with really well, and there was one family member who had always been kind of awful to me. I would hyperfocus on that family member just like, please, please, just like me.

Please. I’ll do anything. I will move mountains for you. Now, that family member would not be someone I talk to because why would I give them my time and energy if all I’m gonna get in return is negativity? So, yeah, I mean, people can change. You can grow.

[00:27:14] Lara: And just another example of how we’re all different.

I also was a massive wallflower, afraid of my own shadow, but my strategy was to try to be as invisible as possible. I didn’t want anybody to have a chance, not to like me. So I I wasn’t trying to win them over. I was hoping they never saw me. So they didn’t have a chance to realize they didn’t like me.

I also have managed to just slowly but surely change that narrative and find my confidence. And I think some of the way that I see myself is so interesting because in some ways I think that I am different, quirky And then the other side of the coin is I’m like, I’m just like. Super normal, regular, and boring, nothing, that would make me stand out.

But all of that together is like just understanding we don’t need to live up to all these expectations. And I don’t know if I know exactly what the takeaway is from this episode other than to allow yourself to not. Always try to measure up to things. If you find yourself being like, I’m not good enough, I’m not like that person to remember, it’s okay to not be like that person.

If you want to take the minute to acknowledge people in your life and be like, I’m so happy we’re friends. I saw some kind of video or meme recently that was Basically getting, any kind of acknowledgement that we are friends can make my heart so happy. Even though like, I know we’re friends, but like you do still like me even though like there’s no reason for you not to still like me, but there’s that part of us that gets I want that validation.

I want people to remind me I’m not being too much. If I message, I’m happy that we’re friends.

[00:29:02] Rowan: You’re not being too much. If you message and I’m happy we’re friends.

[00:29:06] Lara: Excellent. Thank you.

[00:29:08] Rowan: I’ll remind you from time to time. Even if I don’t get back to you, by the way, that is never because I am ignoring you.

It is often because I’m just overwhelmed.

[00:29:20] Lara: Right. It’s not, she’s so annoying. don’t have the bandwidth right now to look at my phone or to engage with people in any kind of way that feels good. And so when we start to realize how differently we’re all operating in the world, when we start to realize that we don’t need to be a specific way, I think it helps us feel a little more grounded.

All with the caveat that I still feel not enough and too much regularly.

[00:29:48] Rowan: That in itself is a thing that we can just own. It’s kind of like the way that I tamed my anxiety. I didn’t get rid of all of my anxiety. There’s still, as someone with an anxiety disorder. I, first of all, I take medication, but also, I a m never going to fully get away from the way that my brain is wired.

So what I’ve done instead, and I’ve talked about this before, is I’ve just accepted that it’s part of my life. So now anxiety and fear are allowed to be here when they show up, but they’re not allowed to drive. They can sit in the passenger seat or in the backseat and they can tell me how anxious they are or how afraid they are.

That’s okay, but. They’re not governing my life anymore in the way that they were. And that can be the same for that little nagging feeling of, am I being too much? Am I not being enough? Am I successful enough? Am I beautiful enough? Am I bragging too much? It’s okay to question. And it’s okay to have those feelings because we are human.

And also we’ve been conditioned into a lot of them see teeth whitening, but. It is also okay to say you can be here, but you’re not going to govern everything I do. That’s all.

[00:31:06] Lara: Yeah, that’s all. I think we need to keep reminding ourselves it is a practice of reminding ourselves that we’re okay as the person that we are, and that we’re gonna just keep doing our best to find the right footholds in the world.

Where we are most appreciated for who we are, and that’s all we need to start doing.

[00:31:26] Rowan: That’s the whole story.

[00:31:28] Lara: Thank you for joining us today. Please subscribe to us on substack, share this with all your friends. Help us get out there and have more people know about the podcast. And if you have any topics you’d like to hear us talk about, please let us know.

[00:31:43] Rowan: Hey, and shoot us a review if you’d like to, if you’re listening to this on one of the podcast apps, reviews really help us, and I think the more we get, the more our podcast gets featured and that’s really nice too.

[00:31:58] Lara: Absolutely. Thank you everybody for joining us today, and we’ll see next week.

[00:32:02] Rowan: Have a good one.

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