We have to talk about sex if we are going to talk about the anti-gender movement. You see, the anti-gender movement is rooted in the belief that sex is simple - boys and girls, penises and vaginas. But actually, sex has never been that simple and rather than assuming we know what sex and gender are because they're "obvious" we talk to one of the world's foremost authorities on just how messy sex and gender are. In this episode, feminist writer and journalist Judith Levine talks with Rebecca Jordan Young, author of Testosterone: An Unauthorized Biography. We also talk with Julianna Neuhauser about how this right wing belief that sex is easy to understand overlaps with trans-exclusionary feminists' "gender critical" stance. And how sometimes, the politics of believing sex is a binary can make for really strange bedfellows.