Shownotes:

We all know that diaspora communities maintain and nurture their culture differently to people in their home country. They feel the need to foster their personal cultural identity but are also under enormous pressure to assimilate in their adopted countries. For societies to be inclusive and flourish - this is essential. But, for the diaspora more often than not this means hiding some part of their cultural identity to not bring attention to themselves. Food seems to be no longer a taboo, but way we speak, the language we use, how we dress, socialise, live, worship can create barriers to assimilation. 

Culture also shapes our values - what we consider right and wrong. Like most immigrants I am proud of my heritage and culture - for me it is about it is about food, music, festivities, the diversity of language. Like most Indians I can speak three languages fluently and converse in a couple of dialects.... And like most Indians in diaspora - socialising within the community was the safety net. However, it can be tremendously isolating if you are trying to 'fit in'. 

So I decided to have a series of conversations with diaspora communities from different parts of the worlds to understand their experiences and think about what the real barriers to integration are. 

In this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast we talk about the importance of culture for diaspora communities, in this instance for the Indian diaspora. I got together with three childhood friends who moved abroad either as students or after marriage to talk about their lived experiences, of trying to fit in; cultural stereotypes; language and identity. We also talk about a journey spanning three decades and how the next generation look at their culture. 

Thank you Archana Bhat, Poonam Mathur and Anita Gupta for this memorable conversation

Memorable passages from this episode: 

👉🏾 So my first question to you is as an Indian diaspora what does culture mean to you and how important is it to you. Should we start with Anita? 

👉🏾 Anita: Indian culture to me means our values of respecting each other respecting what we have and living in peace and harmony, that's what I consider Indian culture. 

👉🏾 Archana: So it's a very similar definition Sudha. To me it is a set of values, like Anita has pointed out, which we carry within us, our traditions, the dialects that we speak, our customs. It pretty much encompasses our religion, we can't take it out of that. The food we eat, the music which we listen to or the instruments that we play. So that all contributes or makes up our culture in my mind. And I think to me culture is really important because it gives us a sense of identity. It makes us the people who we are today. I think it builds the community in which we live and the next step to building the community. Of course it makes up the nation who we are wherever we are, whichever part of the world we are in. So culture is really very, very important to me. 

👉🏾 Poonam: My thoughts are along the same lines. I think it's my core value system is my culture to me. And yes food and music are a very large part of it, but I also feel that as the Indian diaspora we have certain traits that we were raised with, you know respect, mutual respect like she mentioned, and humility and gratitude. I think we really practice that. And for me, culture is very important because it helps me create a bridge from our past generations to us, to our future generations. So my children have that link to there. So I find that's very important that they have a sense of identity as well and that's not lost in the whole process of migration here. 

 👉🏾 Sudha: So as migrants there is this huge pressure on us to try to fit in and also be invisible and I think that's also part of the South Asian trait, Indian South Asian trait. What was your experience when you first moved? Poonam would you like to go first? 

👉🏾 Poonam: My experience was very unique because I think Canada really allowed, all different cultures to flourish and there was no need to be invisible as such. In fact, I found there was such a large community here, which was something I did not expect. And there was such a large celebration of each festival and everything being part of the mainstream that I did not feel the need to be invisible. Yes, there were certain things that, you had to be careful about like I had a problem explaining to people our family hierarchy, that you work with which specific to the Indian way and the gender-based roles in the family. That was something I found very difficult to explain and I think that part of it, I would say I kept invisible, but other than that, I think Canada was really welcoming to all cultures so I did not feel the need to be invisible. 

👉🏾 Archana: Yeah, so I came here Gosh, it was more than what, 28, 30 years ago, but I came here as a student. So as a student, like any other student, you know, I had social anxiety am I going to fit in here, how do you interact with the people? And you try to a certain extent, then you develop coping mechanisms, so my coping mechanism was just interact with the Indian community. So for the first two years, the interaction was only around the social circles within the Indian community. So I didn't feel any difference whether I was in India or whether I was here. After two years, when I joined the workforce I did face like a stereotype anxiety where, there's certain norms which is practiced in the workplace here, which they deem acceptable which I was not a part of. And at that point of time in the initial phases, I just chose to withdraw from the public space, just socialise within your own community. So my main interaction in the first few years coming as an immigrant was just socialising, within the Indian community, that was my coping mechanism. So yes, I felt I did not fit in initially and this was just my coping mechanism just to be among our community. 

👉🏾 Anita: So pretty similar to Archana, I came as a student single, landed in Oklahoma where the only Indian kind of community is the students there and professors. Luckily I had my uncle’s friends family who welcomed me and the Indian student association was pretty strong, so they did help me with a job and stuff. So like Archana, I associated with the Indian students mostly, but being in civil/environmental engineering, very few Indian kids make it into that stream. So I was forced to, it was good because my lab partners or my research, people who I had to share offices with and the research assistant or teaching assistant, they were white, they were Chinese. So I did get a good mix to, offset my daytimes with them. In the evenings then again, you go back to your roommates and they're Indian. 

👉🏾 Two years later being in civil engineering my first job, like this is like hilarious, I got a job in East Texas. Now East Texas is really countryside, they eat gizzards, they eat liver and here I was vegetarian. And I had really long straight hair, down my back and people used to be like, where are you from? Because they have never seen a species like me. Like never. So they used to call it olive skin colour, they used to call me are you Indian. And I initially didn't realise I used to say yes and then one of my white friends Mike, he said, you need to start telling them you dots not feathers. I'm like, what's that? Like he said, dots, not feathers and I'm like, oh my gosh, so every time I've been saying, yes I'm Indian, they were assuming American Indian. And so then I found my ways around it. I was probably the only Indian in a 200-mile radius for them. And working on the construction sites of, the highways and stuff, it was just difficult and being a woman, being vegetarian. But then, you know, worked myself out of those situations, making good friends and being comfortable. So yes at times, I was invisible meaning tried to keep to my identity as much as I could and push my way saying no, this is who I am. And then I made it back into Dallas to work. And again, I think I was one of four Indians amongst 500 odd people. So I've had a good mix going about the whole time. 

👉🏾 Sudha:It sounds something like my experience also. But it also sounds like, as human beings, our default is that if you are uncomfortable in a situation and if you have a fallback option, which is what you had as a student, with the Indian communities, you tend to fall back on them rather than go out and make friends. And I think things haven't changed because it remains the same, we tend to socialise more amongst our own communities than outside communities and it could be a big cultural thing because we are, I think very friendly, loud, we like to talk, we like to engage a bit too much maybe I'm not sure about that. 

 👉🏾 So what are the one stereotype about your culture that really annoys you? You know, IT person, very docile, or even gender stereotypes, you know that maybe Indian women can't do this or can't do that? Archana, would you like to go? 

👉🏾 Archana: When I came here initially and started working and just interacting with society, it's really the myopic view of the Indian culture. So yeah oh, India is a land of elephants, there are tigers roaming around, there is a lot of poverty there, you have arranged marriages, is it one language or how many languages you speak? Oh, worst of all is, you know, yeah India is Bollywood. 

👉🏾 They just assume that you cannot speak English well, or you don't have the level of education that everyone has here, but as they start interacting with you in the workplace or even the community, they realise, look not only can you interact with them very well but you're very, well-versed in a lot of subjects. So really what really annoyed me is the lack of education, that's assumption people made, they think you're just off the boat and you can't speak the language, you don't understand what they are saying, but that's not really the case. 

I think when you land here as a culture, we are more reserved, we are not outspoken at the get- go, we think about things before just blurting it out in a public space. So that's just part of our culture and that's who we are, that does not in any way, indicate that we have a lack of education or we are any less. But again, that comes with time and interacting with society. Now of course the country has changed so much and we appreciate all cultures here and that's the beauty of it. But yes, when I first came here that was my experience. 

👉🏾 Poonam: Mine was very similar. People were very surprised that I spoke such good English, especially at work. So they were always very surprised as to how come you speak such good English and it's hard to explain to them. So that was one annoying stereotype, but like Archana said, that's changed a lot over the years and it's very different now of course. And I think the other stereotype I would say is the poverty part, because I remember, even when that movie Slumdog Millionaire came out, somehow they assume that all of India is the slum and people were actually angry here and saying, how can you let your country be like this and how can you have so much poverty? I mean, that movie really influenced a lot of people here and they had this crazy stereotype about India. So it's very hard to address that and now of course, with all the news they see on COVID, I mean, people still view India, unfortunately in a different light. And they ask these questions to which we have no answers as to why does your government not do something? Why do you people not do something about the poverty? So I feel it's a stereotype. Of course, these are big issues but,` every country has issues. 

👉🏾 Anita: So of course, same like, you know English or poverty but one thing like stereotyped is the recent TV series about matchmaking, that's a big thing. They are like, oh, how can you just meet somebody for five minutes and get married? So that's a big stereotype, but in my opinion, they have a valid point because, seriously like I was so against it, and that is part of the reason why I wanted to come here because my mom had passed away and my dad was looking to get me married. 

👉🏾 And then I thought, let me just do my master's in the United States because I just wanted to escape all that. So they do have a valid point on it because I feel the same and luckily I found him. Funny story in my case is I just knew him for a month and we decided to get married, so it's not that different. And even though we are very culturally the same, he's also a Rajasthani and so am I, there are a lot of nuances where we are a little different. But luckily the food and the clothing and the traditions and the culture or the festivals have all been the same. So it was pretty easy to adjust that way but yes, big, big taboo we have is the arranged marriages I think. And media has helped fuel it even more. 

👉🏾 Sudha: Absolutely, you know this new series that was out and horrible again, I just can't abide by them for sort of reinforcing the stereotype 

👉🏾 Sudha: It does happen but there's a large number of people who make their own decisions. Different parts of India are so different, it's like one continent over there. But I think things are changing. Any character from the media who's like a stereotypical Indian guy who you hate watching on TV. 

👉🏾 Poonam: I think Sudha it's improving and in character I saw on a show I watch, like I binge-watch it over and over again. It's called Schitt’s Creek and I love that show. So there's an Indian character in that. So he's very, typical he's like a stereotypical Indian guy, but because it's a comedy, you don't mind it, but of course, if you start analysing it then you're like why are they showing him like such an annoying character you know, he's a real estate agent, he's a photographer on the side. And I guess I didn't take offence to it because it's a comedy, but in the past, there have been especially in all of the Hollywood movies and some of shows, I think the way they show an Indian character has been very stereotypical, but that's changing again with so many Indians coming into the scene. There's another show we have a local show called Kim's convenience. It's about a Korean family that runs a convenience store it's again, hilarious must watch it. So they have some Indian characters in fact, one of the daughter's ex-boyfriends is an Indian guy and that, I found those characters so true to all our people like, so that's what I feel It's definitely changing and they're portraying Indians as how they meant to be, and we can laugh about it too. So it's nice. 

👉🏾 Archana: You know, one of them, what I can recollect is a standup comedian Russell Peters. So those are really funny. I laugh too, but some of them are like, you know, wait a second that was probably 40 years ago. That's not the Indian today. So, you know, to emphasise on the accent and to emphasise on just how we interact with each other. 

Yes, it could be possible that that was true many, many years ago, but that's not the India today. The India today is changed very much. And as a culture we have changed we have our core values, like Poonam has pointed out. But sometimes seeing runs off his show I'm like, No and I just don't it off, and I'm like, no, that's not who we are. And of course, you have to see the influence on the kids because these shows available to our children and it affects them too. 

👉🏾 Sudha: We also tend to socialise within our own communities and celebrate our own festivals. Did you find it difficult to settle and make friends outside of the community? How was that experience, Anita, would you like to start? 

👉🏾 Anita: Yeah. I have a lot of Indian friends, so my book club or my festivals and stuff is a lot of Indian community, but all my gym friends are very diverse, I have African-American, White, Chinese, Korean Jews, Catholic Ethiopian.but my socialising there helps me a lot too in the evenings. So I don't know, I find it very easy to get along, all my neighbours on my street are all White. So I do associate with a lot of diverse people all the time. 

👉🏾 Anita: Yes, for sure, because again definitely, we are stereotyped and in the US, believe it or not, you know, brown person as a brown person, meaning they can't differentiate us between Iraqis, Iranis, Indian, Pakistani, sometimes at least 9/11 time, they didn't know any better. But over the years the IT industry has tremendously helped us, the brown people, like from India, because now they look at you and they go, are you in IT? So that kind of has helped that, they look at us like, okay, these people are extremely smart and they just mean business. They come here to do good jobs and not anything else. So there has been some differentiation over the years, but it does take effort on our part to go out a little bit.

👉🏾 Poonam: I think it has been difficult to make friends outside the Indian circle I would say because firstly, my community here is really large. My Mathur community, which is larger than anything I've ever seen even back home. So a lot of our socialising was within the community and it was very difficult to have anything outside. Also because of the way we socialise, because I don't think other communities host these big dinner parties and call like 50 people over and all, it's just not their way. 

👉🏾 Poonam: Along with the children. So we socialise with the whole family and they don't do that. So initially we had friends who were non-Indian. But you can only go a certain extent with them, unfortunately. But again, I would say things have changed since then and now even the Indian community has started socialising very differently now, and things are getting better because initially, it was all about these big parties with, hundreds of kids running around and you're bringing these big, dishes out and all you're doing is eating basically from start to finish. And that's what our socialising is about, right! I mean, that's what we do, but that's what I think was a big hurdle too, reaching out to other people outside the Indian community and making friends with them. But again, that's changing and so we do...