Oh, do we have a big feelings about this week’s topic.

In 2024, Cambridge Dictionary named “manifest” their Word of the Year, and with good reason. The idea of manifesting your dream life has risen from an obscure idea to a cultural movement, taking over board rooms and living rooms alike.

But is it a useful tool, or are we being sold snake oil?

Manifestation isn’t a new concept. Its roots are firmly planted in the ancient world, including civilizations in Greece, Egypt and India. Today, some social media influencers claim their lives have changed largely by willing those changes into existence—thinking positively and using the “law of attraction,” for example.

Some of the more spiritual influencers go even further, believing they switched timelines and/or universes to make this happen. And a quick online search will provide a list of “Manifestation Coaches” who provide services such as “frequency tune-ups” and “energetic calibration.”

With backgrounds in life and business coaching, Lara and Rowan have mixed feelings about the idea of manifestation, and tackle its cultural renaissance in this week’s episode. Is it really as magical as people claim? Is it just a money grab to hook folks desperate for change? Or is there a more nuanced and practical approach to manifesting a life we love?

As always, we’d love to hear your thoughts on this one. Leave us a comment or get in touch. And, as always, thanks for listening!

Links:

Link to Rowan’s coffee shop merch: Store — Understory

Transcript:

Please note, these are auto-generated and not carefully edited so there are likely errors.

[00:00:00] Lara: when you believe in things, when you assume they’re gonna happen, when you are confident that they’re gonna work out. You see opportunities in front of you.

[00:00:32] Rowan: Hello and welcome to unboxing it. I am Rowan.

[00:00:37] Lara: And I’m Lara.

[00:00:38] Rowan: And we are talking about something today that kind of gets under my skin. I feel like half the people are gonna turn this off as soon as I say this because either they’re gonna be like, I don’t want to talk about this at all. Or they’re gonna be like, I don’t want you disparaging this word, but I’m just gonna say it.

I wanna talk about manifestation. The idea that you can manifest like will into existence a beautiful life or a successful career, or a great relationship or whatever it might be. It is something that a lot of people have been talking about over the last decade or so. Manifested, manifested, manifested. I have issues with it.

Lara. I do.

[00:01:21] Lara: Yeah, it’s a complicated word. I think that like many words, it is nuanced. It is got a lot of extremes in the way that people see it. Some people hate it, some people love it. Some people believe in it. Some people think it’s hooey

[00:01:39] Rowan: full of woowoo, if you will.

[00:01:40] Lara: Yeah. Full of woowoo. And I think that I am a little bit somewhere in the middle for a mix of reasons that I look forward to getting into.

[00:01:50] Rowan: Yeah. And I wanna say I’m not against the idea. There’s a lot of stories that are told around it and circumstances that I see in the people’s lives who firmly believe in this, that need to be challenged a little bit, in my opinion. And so. I wanna start with that, that I, have an open mind when it comes to this stuff.

I think it might be important to talk about our own experiences with the idea of manifestation, we first heard about it, what we thought about it. Has that changed? What about you?

[00:02:26] Lara: I feel like I’ve been in the world of coaching, which has a lot of people who might bring that up a little bit more than in other areas, so I’ve definitely been quite, exposed to it.

I think that’s probably where, I don’t even know where I first started hearing about it, but it’s gotten louder and louder as messaging over the last while for sure.

[00:02:50] Rowan: Yeah. I think the idea of it, even if manifesting wasn’t quite how it was put, was when Oprah started talking about the secret.

Remember the

book, the Secret and a lot of the secret is essentially about manifestation.

That you have to believe it, you have to really embody it. You have to welcome it into your life. And if you don’t do that, it’s not gonna happen. But if you do do that. It will happen. , I read the Secret ages ago, so I know I’m missing some of the context here, but that was the idea. I used to watch Oprah on repeat, honestly, I watched her almost every day, and so when she was really big into this, this is when I first heard about it, but I remember thinking.

Even back then, I was somebody who had become a parent very young. I had lived on the street, I had been on social assistance. I had gone to food banks. I had been to rehab. I had had a lot of really terrible things happen to me when I was younger and I was now in a place where. I certainly wasn’t wealthy, but I was more comfortable, you know, I was able to buy a home quite young.

I think we were like the last generation to be able to do that. I bought a home at 22 with my ex, and we could pay our bills and. Some of that I think was the belief that I was not going to be stuck there my whole life. That there was a way out and keeping that hope alive, certainly to rise above those circumstances, if you will.

But that was just a tiny fraction that I think allowed me to. Not lose hope entirely. But a lot of it was also just circumstances. My partner, was in high tech and high tech was booming. So she was able to get a job that paid our bills and we were able to very quickly go from living well below the poverty line to above the poverty line.

And that was great, but a lot of that was just her skillset. We bought a home because we got really lucky there and we were able to buy a home right before the.com boom. And when houses exploded in Ottawa, where I used to live and where you currently live. And that home would’ve been unaffordable to us even a couple of years later.

So I think hope and believing that. Things are possible is great, but there are other things like privilege that come into this. And I know I bring up privilege a lot and people are probably sick of me talking about it, but it is a really important thing to acknowledge. It’s not a thing to feel guilty over.

but it is a thing to recognize. And I do think that a lot of the people who preach the idea of manifestation equally in success are people who are in situations that weren’t super challenging to begin with. Like having a solid foundation, having money in the bank, or having a partner who can support your dreams if you’re starting a small business, or having parents who can help you with childcare if you’re trying to get something off the ground or going back to school.

I mean, there’s lots of ways where there shows up , you know, , having, lighter skin, having English as a first language can be really beneficial in many parts of the world. I mean, being able bodied, et cetera, et cetera. Lots of ways where who you are, not just how your thinking can help achieve success.

[00:06:21] Lara: Yeah, so I think we should always be reminding people about privilege. I imagine quite a few of the people who listen to this podcast we might be preaching to the choir, but maybe not with everybody. And, I think that. Understanding privilege and acknowledging it is important. And it’s not about guilt.

It’s not about having done something wrong. It’s just about acknowledging the fact that we’re not all starting from the same place and that makes a difference. It just does. And with manifestation. I think you’re right that there’s a lot of privilege involved, but I do think it’s also a lot of mindset, right?

It is this word that is presented as sort of this spiritual kind of woowoo thing. But I do think that it is concretely also about our own mindset, and that is not woowoo. That’s just. Our brains, and we can jump more into that. But I do think it encompasses a lot of different things. And some of it is this idea of manifestation as like I can, achieve something that I never could have if I hadn’t gone through this process versus manifestation as a way of.

Really figuring out what needs to happen in order to achieve your goals. Do you know what I mean? Like it’s not necessarily that I had a magic wand that I waved around and now I have millions of dollars. It’s about, okay, if I wanna manifest this in my life, what do I need to do to make it happen? And to figure out what that process is and to know that.

You need to be a part of that. It’s not simply throwing it up into the air and seeing what comes back at you. while you were first talking, I wanted to figure out what is the actual definition of manifestation?

The dictionary doesn’t say anything like what I thought it was going to. So manifestation an event action or object that clearly shows or embodies something, especially a theory or an abstract idea.

Like, okay, , and the symptom or sign of an ailment, a characteristic manifestation of Lyme disease. Like, so some of this, like by the definition that I’m seeing online. It’s kind of like, okay, when something happens that shows something that you thought would ha like, I mean, I don’t even know. Like it’s just

kind of like, yeah, this is that thing.

[00:08:44] Rowan: Huh. That’s interesting.

[00:08:47] Lara: I mean, I think how it’s being used is if you have a theory of what is to happen. It can be manifested

by wanting it, but the actual word

manifestation doesn’t seem to have any of the magical out of nowhereness that people seem to think when they talk about it now.

[00:09:05] Rowan: I mean, obviously that example when they said Lyme disease, it manifests in the body this way.

Yes, of course. that’s still in use. But manifesting a goal into existence, a dream into existence, a lifestyle into existence, that very much seems to have a spiritual component for a lot of people. And look. I’m a very spiritual person. I don’t talk about it much, but I firmly believe that there’s something greater than the life that I am living right now.

I don’t think this is the first time I’ve lived a life and I don’t think it’s going to be the last time I live a life. I think reincarnation is quite plausible. I’m fascinated by near death experiences. I think there’s a whole lot we don’t know that may or may not be explained later, and so. You’re not gonna catch me going.

I don’t believe anything that science can’t prove. and in fact, there is an element of science that would support the idea of manifestation. They have shown that when people are undergoing cancer treatments, if they have a positive belief that they’re going to get through it, they tend to recover better.

Like they tend to do better. Symptomatically when they’re going through things like chemo and radiation, they tend to have fewer bad days overall. I don’t know if it actually affects the outcomes, but it certainly does affect how they get through it. You also have a lot of science behind placebo drugs and how if you tell somebody that you are giving them is not a sugar pill, it is in fact something that’s going to make them better.

Quite often the placebo will do just as well. And I think every once in a while, even better than the drug itself, because the power of belief for whatever reason, does have some effect on us. The brain is a very powerful thing and the brain controls the nervous system and that goes throughout our entire body.

So yes, I am in full agreement that having an attitude of frankly getting out of your own way. And helping yourself achieve something. Can absolutely happen, but I don’t think that just thinking it’s going to happen somehow magically rearranges the universe. Because if you get into it, and I’ve gotten into it, like I said, pretty spiritual person.

YouTube will take me down these paths sometimes, and I’m fascinated by them. And one of the things that I saw one day was that if you just manifest something. You’ll jump timelines and suddenly you’ll be in a different timeline where these things will come true. Now, do I think that there’s a possibility that there are multiple timelines?

Sure. I mean, why not? Do I think that if I just believe. That I’m going to have millions of dollars. I will suddenly jump timelines into one where I come into millions of dollars. No, I don’t believe that. And maybe years down the road when we figure out, you know, different types of science. That will be proven wrong.

Be like, yeah, Rowan was wrong this whole time. They’ll dig me outta the archives and play this and go see that guy. He was totally wrong about this. Like, okay, fine. But there can be a form of manipulation. I find when people use manifesting, they’re often trying to sell you something.

Trying to sell you their services or a book that they’ve written or something that. They want you to believe that if you just think this way, you’re gonna get the life of your dreams. And if that were the case, wouldn’t so many more people have the life of their dreams. I would argue that there are even a lot of people who seem to have a dreamy life.

Who are not happy in it. just, from the outside it looks really good. So, I don’t know. This is where I think that nuance comes in, but also where I get really, really frustrated with that side of things.

[00:13:07] Lara: I think the dangerous part when it comes to discussions about manifestations. Is that people can get in trouble, right?

They can do things because they put their full belief in the fact that certain outcomes are going to arrive for them, and then they maybe dig themselves into holes. They spend money they shouldn’t spend, they don’t take actions they should take. People are reinforcing these behaviors that are detrimental to them in the long run.

Like I think that’s where some of the danger with manifestation comes in. I do think that strong belief that something is possible leads to confidence, leads to being able to achieve certain things, and I think that. A lot of people don’t really believe in themselves. They don’t really have confidence in themselves.

So they could say, that they want something, but they don’t really believe it. And that’s where I think this, the secret manifestation, like I think that’s where things can work, is the more you truly believe something is possible, the more likely you are to. Do the things that need to happen to achieve that goal, the more likely you are to convey to the world that you are the kind of person that that thing would happen for all of the blocks just fall into place.

Because you really seem confident enough for it. And when you timidly tell people something they may not feel very confident in you, it might not turn out. And I think that’s really important. I have had a lot of belief in my life that certain things are possible, and the more I believe in it, the more likely it is to happen.

That being said. There are a limited amount of things that I feel that confident about, right.

[00:14:56] Rowan: Yeah, exactly. I’ll use my own life as an example here again, but, um, yeah,

[00:15:03] Lara: strange. We’ve never done that before.

[00:15:06] Rowan: Rowan talk about himself, when does that ever happen? The guy who wrote two memoirs?

Okay. Um, I’ve let it be known many times. my partner Dani and I are opening a cafe, and that has been a huge leap of faith. Because we have taken this big, big risk. We took on a big loan, like all of these things to make this happen. It is really hard, really stressful.

I was just telling you before we started recording how tired I am right now. We’re not even open yet. We’re in the build phase right now, but. I have had full belief in this project since I first brought it up to her. It was the day after she lost her job. She was let go from her job, end of March of this year.

And I gave her a day to kind of just feel terrible. I think it was the day after that, you know, I said, you know, that dream we’ve always had of opening a coffee shop, I think we should do it. And I’m so glad she went for it, but. It’s one thing to want something. It’s another thing.

To put the work in to make it happen. And there is a ton of work that goes into opening a brick and mortar business more than I ever realized before. And you have to be up for every challenge. And you have to expect unexpected things all the time. Example, later we are going for a walkthrough of the space as they are in the middle of demolishing it and rebuilding it because they found some.

Quote unquote surprises That they wanna show us, right? So like, this is just how it is. And I could have just never taken this plunge. We could have just gone and, you know, got other jobs and,in a way played it safe. If you wanna call it that, I don’t know if it would’ve been safe.

The economy’s weird. I mean, there’s lots of things you could talk about here, but I think risking everything to open up a business is not the safe option. But that confidence that I had in this idea, the confidence I have in Dani, the confidence I have in myself to make this work. The confidence she has and the years of experience that we have cultivated over time that have all gone into this, I think is gonna make it a success.

I wouldn’t call that manifesting in the spiritual sense, but I do think there has been a component of spirituality because I regularly check in with myself and I go, Hey, uh, gut feelings, how are we doing today? And every time I ask. My gut just says, yeah, Rowan, you’re on the right path right now.

This is what you’re supposed to be doing and everything’s gonna be okay. And that reassures me. So is it manifestation? I don’t know. What do you think?

[00:17:47] Lara: Well, that’s where I think it’s just a word that can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. And while some spirituality, some unknowns of the universe may be coming into play, it’s mostly about.

You, right. It’s not like I’m gonna manifest winning the lottery. I’m gonna manifest that. I am going to have a career. I’m gonna open a coffee shop. It’s gonna be successful. But then you’re gonna take the steps needed to do that. You’re not just like, let’s see how this happens.

[00:18:17] Rowan: Can you imagine

[00:18:18] Lara: like there’s a lot of steps involved and there’s a lot of opportunities, so this is another part where I think our brains can play tricks on us, and the more pessimistic we are, the more anxious we are.

The more we don’t believe something can happen, the more likely we aren’t able to see. The opportunities. And that’s true. I mean, not just opportunities. You know, the more anxious you are, the less likely you are to be able to find something when you’re looking for it. You know, like when you’re frantically running around your house trying to find something and you just cannot see it anywhere.

But then somebody else might come in or you’ve calmed down a little bit and it’s like, oh, it was literally sitting on the table by the front door.

[00:19:05] Rowan: Yep.

[00:19:05] Lara: And it is this state of panic or anxiety or like I said, not believing something is possible that can have your brain not see things that are in front of you.

So when you believe in things, when you assume they’re gonna happen, when you are confident that they’re gonna work out. You see opportunities in front of you. You see how this little thing that isn’t exactly what you would’ve wanted, but that might lead you to something else has appeared. And so you’re like, oh, I’m gonna do that because that’s related to what I want.

And you take opportunities, you say yes to more things, you go out and talk to more people. And that translates into things working out. And if you shut everything down and you feel really scared all the time, it’s harder to then move forward. So that’s where I think mindset is such a huge part of this.

And if the word manifestation is the thing that’s gonna help you find the confidence to take the action you want to create the life you want, do it, use it, have it. I love it. I just think that it is this mix of, don’t assume the universe is about to hand you everything you wanted on a platter

because you wrote it down.

It does. Involve a bit more

than that. So, I wrote a bit about manifestation in my book, but it really is about believing in yourself. It’s the more you believe in yourself, the more likely you are to have things work out. And I’ve seen that in my own life and I’ve seen it with people that I work with.

The more unsure and scared you are, the less likely something is to work. And that’s not magic. That’s how that impacts what you do and how you do it.

[00:20:50] Rowan: I think the other thing that can really impact it, speaking from experience is going through life with a victim mentality.

And that kind of negativity where you know, if you’ve decided, I am the victim of my circumstances and I will never get ahead.

And I will never be able to achieve my dreams and the world is stacked against me. That is pretty much a guarantee that you’re never gonna move forward. And again, I’m not saying privilege doesn’t play a factor. I would be the last person to say that. But what I am saying is, you know, I didn’t have a high school education growing up.

I lived below the poverty line. I used to panhandle. I Was pregnant at 19. For people who don’t know, I’m a trans man. So before I transitioned, I gave birth to three children and adopted a fourth. And, all of these things were stacked against me.

I watched people I went to school with, go on to get, a bachelor’s and then a master’s and some of them even PhDs, and go get these high-end jobs and do really well. and I remember thinking to myself, I was really fortunate to have a partner who did well in tech because without her.

Where would I be? I would be living paycheck to paycheck, if I even had a paycheck. So I definitely am not saying that circumstances don’t play a role, but I also think as somebody who used to have a really big victim mentality when I was growing up into my early twenties, that that heavily skewed me.

Against being able to have any kind of a life that I wanted, it is really easy to write yourself off completely, and I just don’t wanna see people do that. So if we look at manifestation as a mindset shift, I think we can also, if we wanna bring a little bit of spirituality into it, but also a little bit of science.

There’s also an energy component there, right? Like we are energetic beings, we know that we’re made of energy, and our energy goes back to the earth when we die. and it gets recycled. And we know that that’s just a universal truth. Like energy is energy, but . I also think that the energy that I put out in the world is something that will often get reflected back to me.

I try to be a really kind person. Uh, try to be really kind. Sounds like I’m not actually kind, even when I’m having a bad day, I try never to take that out on anybody, right? I don’t scowl at people. I smile and ask, the server, how their day is. Like, I talk to the checkout clerk. always try to do these things because I think that

circulating that positive energy does some good for everyone, including myself. So yeah, I think that if you believe in yourself and you really want something, the energy that you put out into the world is going to make it easier for that to happen. Recognizing opportunities. Yes, but also creating the connections that you need to make that happen.

The genuine connections, right. Of other people. Those, friendships or,business connections or whatever it might be that lead you to a better place. So, yeah. I’m all for the idea that we can make things happen just realistically.

[00:24:24] Lara: I think the victim mentality is a huge one because then

you’re not empowered. It’s hard to do much, and so when we shift away from believing life is happening to you and start to believe that you can create things, that you have the ability to make all kinds of things happen, that helps you. Decide what action you can take that will help you get there.

And I think we’re very much on the same page here in terms of what manifestation can ultimately be. And we don’t want anybody to think, well, like Don’t do the journaling and don’t do the manifesting, like do it because that’s where you can figure out what you want and how you can do it, and how it will happen, and how you have the ability to make it happen.

And that’s where I think the magic comes from.

[00:25:16] Rowan: So what do you want people to know about manifestation? Like, are we poo-pooing it? Are we embracing it?

What’s your big takeaway here?

[00:25:25] Lara: I want people to know that dreaming big is worthwhile. I think I want people to know that there are so many things that you’re capable of doing and of having and of creating, and it is absolutely worth believing in that. And. That the more you figure out how you have a role in creating that once you believe in it, the more likely those things are to happen, and that absolutely is manifesting something.

It’s just making sure we don’t get stuck in some of the ideas that I’ve seen that really leave it up to. The universe to deliver things that aren’t really a thing. Most people get delivered.

[00:26:16] Rowan:

Yeah. I think what I want people to know is that there two things here. There are the things we can control, which are very limited. And there are the things we can’t control. There are situations in our control, like how I approach situations, how well I research a dream, how much I plan.

Maybe I’m able to take courses on whatever it is I want to do. Maybe I do a lot of journaling and really flesh out my dreams, and there are things we can’t necessarily control. If I have to work three jobs to be able to pay my rent gives me a lot less time, to create that dream if I don’t have savings.

I might not be able to do what I wanna do right now, and that might take a little longer. so going into everything with hope and passion for a project, because the more that we believe in something, I think is something that you said, the more we believe in it, the more dedicated we are to make it happen.

And I don’t want anyone to think, well, that’s it. I can never do this thing that I want to do. I think a lot of the successes that we’ve seen in the world, big ideas come to life whereby people who refuse to take no for an answer. They’re like, no, if I have to work really hard, if I have to start this business in my garage, if I have to move back home with my parents, if I have to sell my car, if I have to.

Eat ramen. If I, you know, whatever it is to make this happen, I’m gonna make it happen. if my friends think I am crazy for doing this, I’m gonna do it anyway. ‘cause I really believe in this dream and I think that’s actually beautiful and I love to hear success stories like that. So I just don’t want people to throw their hands up and go, it’s okay.

The universe will provide everything for me or if I buy this program from someone, they’ll teach me how to manifest something with little to no effort. I don’t want to see that because I think sometimes people are being taken advantage of. So the term manifest and the idea of manifestation, they’re not bad.

I think they just need a little bit of refinement and a little bit more reality sometimes.

[00:28:38] Lara: And we’re all. Capable of a lot of things and big things and of continuing to grow as people and to have things in life that you never thought would happen. Like all of that is possible. Certainly, like you said, circumstances and reality are part of it.

That doesn’t mean you can’t figure out what are the right steps to do. There’s a lot of things you can do that aren’t gonna help you, and there are a lot of things you can do that will help you. And so it’s just a little bit about being intentional. I really think confidence is a huge one wonderful things can happen.

But I agree there are people out there who want to charge you $25,000 to teach you how to do it, and that is probably not the ideal way to go.

[00:29:22] Rowan: Yeah, exactly. You know, though this conversation has helped me feel better about the term, I think I’ve shifted my own mindset.

With us talking about this and been like, okay, when I think about manifesting, I’m going to think about it.

In a way that feels better to me, that feels more realistic. And I hope that if there was anybody else that was listening today. They also take that away. I hope that you did, and maybe you’re really mad at me for bringing up that manifestation is not pure magic. That’s okay too. Uh, you tell me.

I will not be offended. Believe me. All you have to do is go to my Threads account and read some of the things that people say to me when I don’t ask them for feedback, and you’ll see that I can handle just about anything that comes my way. But I am gonna try and manifest some more positive interactions.

[00:30:20] Lara: Yeah, and I think we should all manifest some wonderful things for 2026. I do not really love the idea of New Year’s resolutions, but I do love the idea of spending time with yourself, thinking about what you want, why you want it. And what you’re gonna do to get there and I do think this is the time of year that a lot of people find even the time to do that after the big holiday stuff has happened.

And just like with September or whenever school starts where you are like, I find there’s that renewed energy. We have that in January. And so manifest the heck outta 2026 everybody.

[00:30:58] Rowan: Absolutely. And please manifest. No more big surprises for Rowan and his coffee shop, please, and thank you. If you have that magic power, could you please send some my way because I would really like everything else to go off without a hitch.

Like, just completely fine. Now. Anyway, that’s, my personal manifestation is begging listeners to help.

[00:31:26] Lara: Yes, and Rowan has links to merch for his new coffee shop, and that helps by supporting him in his dream. So by putting that out there and me sharing that with you, maybe you go and support his coffee shop, and that helps make all of it more doable.

See, oh, it’s a little bit of, here’s my magic wand and here’s the action we’re gonna take. That can actually help.

[00:31:49] Rowan: Wow. I didn’t never even thought about that. I didn’t even think to pl ug the merch. that’s, really nice of you. Thank you. See, sometimes the universe provides and they provide in a really awesome co-host.

Thank you so much for joining us today. Please let us know what you thought of this episode. We love to hear from you and we hope that you’ll stick around. To engage with us some more and listen some more.

[00:32:11] Lara: Thank you for being here.

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