Stop me if you’ve heard this one.

Your friend arrives home from work and enters a clean, organized house. She takes out fresh ingredients from the fridge and begins to prepare a homecooked meal. She then takes a picture of the finished creation in her still-tidy and organized kitchen to post on Instagram.

You see it as you’re doom scrolling on the couch after work, waiting for pizza to arrive, and glance over at your disastrous apartment. Why can’t you be as put together as she is? What’s wrong with you?

If this is relatable, welcome to the club. For those of us who live with executive dysfunction, chronic illness, disability or mental health, societal expectations of a perfect home, an excellent fitness regime, or peak work performance can bring about deep feelings of shame.

And worse, these ideals are impossible to avoid; they’re depicted in movies, commercials, and on curated social media feeds. And if we try to bypass them, to take shortcuts to make our lives easier, that can feel like personal failure.

But what if we gave ourselves and each other more grace? On this episode of Unboxing It, we tackle the concept of taking “the easy way” and make a case for it sometimes being “the only way that works.” And you know what? That’s a win.

Links

Episode 1 - On Fatness

Link to Rowan’s coffee shop merch: Store — Understory

Transcript

[00:00:00] Lara: Good enough is fine a lot of the time. And when the option is not done or good enough, good enough is definitely better than not done. Welcome to unboxing it. I’m Lara.

[00:00:33] Rowan: And I’m Rowan.

[00:00:34] Lara: And today we’re gonna talk about something that impacts me directly, that I’ve written about in my book. Really, it’s at the crux of my whole book, which is called It’s Not Lazy, which you know, there’s a lot of ways to talk about this, but it really is.

About how it’s not a bad thing to take the easy way, the shortcut way when things are hard.

[00:00:57] Rowan: Hmm.

[00:00:58] Lara: And I think that as a society, that is not something that we’re taught to do. We’re taught to do things correctly. We’re taught there is a correct way to do things. We’re told that if we don’t do things the correct way, we’re lazy.

And that puts so much pressure on a person to feel like they’re able to do life correctly. And oftentimes people don’t feel like they measure up. I have ADHD, so I have executive functioning issues. I don’t know, executive functioning. Difficulty sometimes where it’s hard to do things that I think are easy for other people and it’s taken me a long time to be okay with that and find ways that work for me because of that.

[00:01:40] Rowan: Because you have ADHD and.

Despite the fact that I definitely don’t want to mansplain your own book to you, I believe your book is called You’re Not Lazy.

[00:01:51] Lara: You’re right. It is

[00:01:56] Rowan: Which I think is actually hilarious because this is how we’re starting things and it just further perhaps proves the point that things like ADHD really do affect people’s brains.

I don’t have ADHD myself, but for a while, for a good while, I, and the professionals that I worked with thought I did.

It turned out I had a trauma disorder and that trauma disorder, because it had never been treated, which was, well, I actually had two, complex PTSD and sort of the more classic PTSD altogether. And as a result of that, an anxiety disorder, which I still have, but because the trauma. the anxiety it caused were not under control.

My brain behaved very much like somebody with ADHD, I ticked all the boxes and so I can empathize very much in my own way. It is a lot easier for me to structure my day, to clean something up, to make a plan and remember the plan, and to do a lot of the things that I used to get overwhelmed by for years and years, pretty much my whole life until these issues were addressed for me.

So I think this is an important thing to talk about because the shame that that creates when you. Constantly feel like you’re letting yourself down or you’re letting the people around you down because you’re not doing things the way that society tells you you are supposed to do them. To be a functioning human being in itself creates further issues and barriers to getting those things done.

[00:03:43] Lara: Definitely, and I think. as you mentioned, there are other reasons that this might happen. So ADHD is one. There are things that seem very similar to ADHD. There’s chronic illness.

[00:03:55] Rowan: I think autism and other sort of neuro divergent, things that people deal with, that people live with, can get in the way in various ways to doing things.

The way that, I’m going to use air quotes, the average person. Would do them.

[00:04:10] Lara: Yeah. Or even just having a really busy life. Imagine having, three or four kids and a full-time job and, maybe a parent that needs support or a spouse that’s away a lot. or you’re a single parent.

Like, there’s so many things where it’s just too much to also do all the things exactly. Correctly. So. The point with all of this set up is that there are easier ways to do things, but they’re not always the cheapest. They’re not always the, most aesthetically pleasing there’s a lot of little things that might make it so that somebody else would say, just do it like this.

And I have learned through a lot of work on myself to accept certain things and to know that it’s okay to do things differently. And I say that all while also knowing that I struggle to have people come to my house because I know it’s not necessarily going to be tidy enough for me to feel comfortable by the time they get there.

But there’s a lot of little things that I think people don’t necessarily allow themselves to choose because they think they shouldn’t have to do it that way.

[00:05:21] Rowan: So I think a good example of that would be something like food prep, cooking.

We are taught that cooking at home is the healthiest and it is truly the most. Financially sound thing to do for the majority of us because ingredients are cheaper than prepared products overall, unless we’re talking about like really heavily processed things like, frozen pizza and that sort of thing.

That can often be cheaper than buying the ingredients and making a pizza yourself. But other than that, making meals at home is sort of the standard. except that a lot of people, for various reasons, have a very difficult time making meals every single night or three times a day or whatever it might be that they feel is required of them.

And so one of the. Solutions to that for a lot of people is, well, I’ll just get takeout. And we know that there can be issues with that. I mean, it, it’s expensive. It’s usually not that good for you, and if it is good for you, it’s even more expensive. Usually you’re gonna be paying a lot more, but there’s all this in between, right?

There are things that you can do, like everything from. I’m gonna batch cook once a week, and then we’re just going to eat that. one thing, I’ll go in the fridge, I’ll put the other thing in the freezer. I’ll take the thing out of the freezer when the thing in the fridge runs out. Like there are things like that that can be done.

There’s also meal kits. They can be expensive. But they’re not as expensive as takeout usually, and they tend to be better for you. So there’s, different ways to do it. Right.

[00:06:58] Lara: We did meal kits for a while. And while they are more expensive than if you are organized enough to buy all of your ingredients on sale and use all of your ingredients before they go bad, that’s cheaper.

But in the long run, it was barely more expensive, if at all, for us to do the meal kits because we only got exactly the amount we needed. We felt. Compelled to make them because we had ordered them and there was very little food waste. Whereas it’s really easy in my household to have food waste, Things disappear into the back of the fridge, into the bottom of the fridge. We have five people living in this house and the fridge is usually full and then things get lost or. You just don’t feel like making that thing. This is a thing for me a big time, which is just because on Sunday I thought I to eat that this week doesn’t mean I’m gonna want it.

[00:08:00] Rowan: Or have the energy necessarily to cook it. And that’s the other thing that people struggle with. Do I love the idea of a big Sunday dinner if we’re using that as an example? Yeah, of course I do. Do I always have the energy to make one? No. And then what? Well, I’ve got all these ingredients in the fridge and now I’m not gonna make it.

And then by the time I get to next week, we’ll either have to put, say the roast I was going to make in the freezer, and then remember to take it out. In time that it thaws so that I can make the meal the following week, or it just gets lost forever. it is definitely for some people easier to do meal kits.

I’ve never done them, but I know plenty of people who have, and I have no issues with it, but. I do also know some people who are like, well, that’s just lazy. Like you don’t need to do that. They’re just trying to sell you a product that you don’t need. And I see that with a lot of other things too, like kitchen gadgets, where my first reaction to maybe a kitchen gadget that I don’t need is, this is useless and a waste of money and a waste of, plastic resources, whatever it might be.

But there can be somebody else with a disability who really needs that jar opener or really needs that particular type of storage and this is the issue that we deal with where society seems to decide what is okay and what is not okay for everybody’s life. And then those of us who don’t do those things, who don’t measure up, if you will, and do the things correctly.

I hope we all know what I’m using air quotes now because I definitely say it differently. We then often carry the shame, like I’m somehow a failure because I’m not able to keep my houses clean, or I’m not able to cook for myself as often, or I end up being late to my appointments. So there’s that aspect.

And then there’s the other side of it. And this is where Nuance comes in. And I do wanna touch on this a little bit and I’d love to get your thoughts on this, Lara, because. While I completely understand from a personal standpoint and just from the people I know and love around me, that we all end up having limitations.

And those limitations some of them are very set, they’re very fixed, and we cannot go beyond that. How do we not get to the point where we go, I can never improve upon this ever. And then never challenge ourselves to do better versus I have to get to this gold standard of doing things.

You know what I mean? Like, I don’t think I worded that properly, but what I mean by that is I’m always going to be like this. It can never change. Or it has to change. There is no choice and it has to be at this level. Like certainly there is something in between for a lot of people because what I see sometimes is we either push ourselves way too hard to do what is frankly probably impossible for us.

And then there are also people who never push themselves at all and. They use whatever their beliefs are about their own limitations as a stopping point, which is very negatively, affecting their lives, so. Where is the in-between there? Is there an in-between?

[00:11:32] Lara: Yeah. It’s a really good question.

So I do think that some people who are always striving for perfection end up. Really pushing themselves all the time and it becomes like a compulsive, like I need to do, I need to do, I need to do, and in some ways that might actually get them to do more of the stuff. But it’s probably very difficult.

And so that’s potentially a side of things I don’t know about.

[00:11:58] Rowan: Well, I, as somebody who did that for a long time, it really can negatively affect your mental health, especially if it is truly something that you will never be able to achieve.

[00:12:08] Lara: Yeah. and I agree, part of this is. For many of us to give ourselves some grace and decide what is the easier way to do things.

Whether it’s because you’re pushing yourself so hard, it’s killing you, or whether you have tried, but feel like you’re never gonna get it right and you feel sad about it, and then you get depressed about it and then you need to deal with it. But it’s gotten so bad that you’re. Feeling stressed out about dealing with it, right?

Like it becomes a snowball. And then there are some folks who are just like, I can’t do that. End of story. and then they don’t really try to do things differently. So there’s a lot of different areas for it. But what I think is important is for the people who either are overwhelmed or they don’t think they can.

Do whatever is to find the easiest ways to do things. So an example for me is, and again this is going to sound probably preposterous to somebody who just wouldn’t struggle with this, but it can be really good to have an open garbage can or an open recycling bin right out in front of you to throw things into.

know that when we did our renovation, we have a bunch of recycling bins in the hallway and our designer definitely wanted to enclose them, right? Put this into like a cabinet, we’re gonna hide it away. And I said, I understand that would be aesthetically pleasing. However, if we put it into a bin and that would require us to pull it open and put something inside of it, We aren’t going to do it. And that is where the lazy thing comes in, right? Because if you don’t a difficult time doing that, it just sounds lazy to you that somebody else wouldn’t. But for some of us, myself included,

it’s like the

idea of doing the thing disappears when it’s not super visible. So it’s not, I am so tired, I cannot open the bin.

It’s like once, it’s not like so easy and in my face, I forget that thing exists, and so I just leave it on the counter.

It’s not willfully lazy, quote unquote. It is just like that thing, flit out of my head as a possibility. Do I wish that wasn’t true? A hundred percent. I would like my brain to be like, Hey Lara, why don’t you open up that drawer and put that thing away?

But it doesn’t really easily do that. And the idea that for some folks, once something is put away, it’s like it doesn’t exist anymore, which is how things get lost in your fridge, right? Even though it obviously does right, is why we have open kitchen cabinets all the time.

I really wanted there to be some kind of gadget that would automatically close kitchen cabinets after a certain amount of time. But when we had our reno done, they said that wasn’t really a thing, or at least it would be too expensive because I will walk into my kitchen on a regular basis and like.

Seven different doors are open. So I just walk around going clunk, clunk, clunk, clunk, clunk, closing them all. But I know that I’m just as likely to have left it open because just leaving things open. It’s not willfully being a jerk. It’s just like I took my thing. I didn’t think anything beyond that.

And so we need to play with what works for people. And if certain things don’t work, we figure out what does work. So if it’s a food box, get a food box. If it’s an open recycling bin, it’s an open recycling bin. Another example I was thinking of is that I like to have cleaning products in every bathroom because if I wanna clean my bathroom, I usually do it on impulse.

And I don’t want to go find the cleaning products. And if I have to go downstairs to find the cleaning products, it is relatively likely that between my bathroom and getting the products, I will have gotten distracted and decide to do something else instead. And so while it is not necessarily. The cheapest thing or because we don’t have the space to keep them closed up, like the nicest looking things.

To have some products in every bathroom is one of our hacks to make sure that we can still clean the thing without losing steam before we get to the cleaning products.

[00:16:30] Rowan: Yeah, we actually do that in our house too. We, have four bathrooms in the house, so I realized over time very difficult to get people to clean the bathrooms if it’s not really simple to do.

But that’s even me because if I’m in cleaning mode, I might go, okay, I’m gonna tackle this bathroom, but then I run downstairs to the kitchen, say, to get all the products and I’m like. Oh gosh. There’s all this stuff on the counter that I need to put away. So then I start to do that, and the next thing you know, I’ve completely forgotten the upstairs bathroom.

It’s just, so far from my mind. I wanna dig a little deeper into what happens over time. If you constantly feel like a failure because you are not doing things. Again, air quote time properly. You’re not cooking meals the way your mother thinks that you should cook meals. You are not exercising the way your doctor says you should be exercising.

you’re not getting to your appointments 10 minutes early. Like you keep trying to what is happening over time and. Do you think that there are some mindset shifts, some things that we can tell ourselves to help with that?

[00:17:46] Lara: Well, it definitely decreases our self-worth over time, right?

The more that you think you messed up and to be clear, it doesn’t always require somebody to come in and tell you you messed up. It can just be yourself thinking, I am not good enough. I know I’m not doing this as well as I should. And so you start to just believe it, The more either you tell yourself or somebody else tells you that you’re not good enough at something, the more you believe that that is true.

And so in terms of what to do about it, think part of it is to realize. most people may not be doing it as perfectly as you think they are, that even when you are doing things, you may feel like you’re not doing enough and then you beat yourself up. So you may start to, blow it out of proportion.

So a good example for me is recently I was really getting upset about how messy something was, and other members of my family were like, yeah, it’s kind of messy. I think that what you think is happening is significantly worse than what is actually happening. And so it’s nice that I have people who can remind me of that, but it also requires me to actively decide that that’s true and be willing to accept it and internalize it and try to

cut myself a break.

So. I think

that knowing things don’t have to be perfect knowing, not everybody’s house is spick and span clean and like, I clearly think this what I’m about to say next, because I’m trying to make myself feel better. But, you know, some of the people whose houses are like perfect, like maybe they’re obsessively cleaning in a, compulsive way that’s not healthy either.

[00:19:22] Rowan: Right, exactly. Because that’s the other side of that spectrum, right? Where you have people who maybe have a very difficult time cleaning and people who spend all their time cleaning. And from having been on both sides of that, I will say, we’ve talked a lot about the messy. Let’s talk a lot about the hyper clean.

That was for me, unchecked anxiety and OCD, me trying to just escape from other things. Just like if I play too many video games or I look at my phone too much or whatever it might be, right? It’s like I don’t wanna sit in my thoughts, so I am going to. Pull all the furniture out once a week and clean underneath it, like that actually needs to be done.

You know, as often as I was doing it, so. I do think we are all different. it is a spectrum and we’re all going to have different levels of capability. We’re also gonna have different levels of tolerance for things like mess. So I want to give lots of space to that and we keep talking about mess, but you know, it is a lot of different things.

One thing that I said on Threads last night, because it really occurred to me, and it’s funny because it kind of ties into this conversation, I really wish that when I was younger, somebody had told me.

Most of us have no idea what we’re doing. And, that we’re just figuring it out constantly until we die. there’s this concept that, you know, oh, that person has their s**t together. Right? Well, that’s the version of themselves that you are seeing. You are not seeing all the other things.

I knew a lot of people who lived what appeared to be a very Stepford existence, right? Like the Stepford wives just very put together. because I lived as a woman for a long time. I had a lot of women friends and I knew some who, you know, thin, beautiful, went to the gym, ate really well, had handsome husbands, had very well-behaved children, had beautiful homes that were decorated and clean and, you know what happened time and time again.

The minute you looked under the hood, the minute that you became friends and they started to open up. you started to realize, wow, they’ve got problems too. Their problems look different than mine. Maybe mine are more on display. Maybe they’re more obvious, but they also have issues. Maybe their marriage isn’t as perfect as it is.

Maybe they have an eating disorder. Maybe they have, OCD. Maybe they. Are berating themselves constantly for not being perfect enough and are trying really, really hard to be perfect. Everything from their career, to their home, to their family, to their marriage, to their bodies, right? So that person that seems to have it all together probably doesn’t, and the people who I find have it most together.

Are the ones who are really honest with themselves and the world wherever they are in that moment. Whether they’re, taking really good care of their nutrition or not. Whether their homes are sparkling, clean or messy, whether they have lots of friends or they’re struggling socially, whatever it might be, they are.

Meeting themselves where they’re at. And they’re also challenging themselves, not in an unhealthy way, but that’s the other thing where I always want to honor where people are at. And also know just from a personal place. And please, if somebody disagrees with me, feel free to let me know. I do believe that life is about growth.

I firmly believe that. We have to grow as people because over time we develop new skills and wisdom and perspective and experience and that I never wanna stay stuck in one place. like I’ve been exercising for over a decade now. I am constantly challenging myself to new exercise. However, I also know.

I can’t run. If I run, I’m really gonna hurt my knees and my hips because I have issues there. So that’s my limitation. But I am able to do exercise in other ways that work for me, and I keep pushing that a little bit. Like today I did jumping jacks because I was like, I haven’t done jumping jacks in forever.

Let’s see if I can do them. It actually wasn’t a terrible idea, but if I had gone another 30 seconds, it would’ve been because I’m almost 50. But it was cool, right? Because I was able to push myself. So I think it’s cool to try new things and to never give up on yourself. I think that’s the big thing.

Don’t give up on yourself. But also don’t expect perfection. I’m never going to be a thin person. I know I’m never gonna be a thin person. I’m totally okay with that. So how I live my life When it comes to nutrition, when it comes to exercise, I’m not aiming to look like an Adonis. Like that’s not, you know, I’m not trying to be Atlas here.

This is not, my goal. I never will be super muscular, really fit, but I can still exercise, in ways that work for me, I can still eat well and also indulge and not feel bad about it. So I guess that’s what I’m trying to say is like. I love myself enough to not berate myself for not achieving a goal that somebody else has achieved, but I will keep setting goals for myself and be really proud when I meet them.

[00:25:08] Lara: Yeah, I think it’s about not giving up. It’s about. Not measuring yourself up against other people, but figuring out what works for you. And this is where the judgment piece is real, right? It’s not entirely imagined that people are judging certain people, and it tends to be, the judgment comes on one side of the spectrum, right?

Not very many people are shaming people. And I don’t think anybody should be shamed to be clear, for being too thin or, the whole, the early bird gets the worm means that if you sleep in, you’re doing it wrong. People who get up early are the ones who do it correctly, even though you could be getting just as much done, but later in the day, like, why do we think that is worse than the other one?

Like, there’s no good reason for it. So remembering that there are people. Who will say that your way of doing things is wrong without acknowledging the other side of things that is also kind of problematic and really, really believing that that is true can help you stop being so hard on yourself and allow you to think, okay.

Is what I’m doing working for me. If it’s working for me, I’m just gonna keep doing, if it’s not working for me, what can I do that will work? And I think that more people who are willing to share when things have been difficult, there are certainly people online who have been sharing like, look, my house is outta control messy, but this is how I clean it up.

So there’s a book that I thought of while you were talking called How to Keep House While Drowning by KC Davis.

And I think she’s a really good one, right? She’s like, being messy is not a moral failing, and here are some things you can do that will help make it easier for you to recover when things aren’t working.

And so. It allows you not to be like, I suck, I suck, I suck, I suck. Why don’t I just do it right? Why do I let it get like this? You’re like, okay, if it gets like this, this is what I do. This is how I deal with it. This is what I do next. I am okay. And that can take so much pressure off because the shame piece, the I’m not good enough, I’m never gonna get it right piece so heavy and it’s unfairly.

Put on some people and not others.

[00:27:23] Rowan: Yeah, absolutely. you rarely get someone looked down upon for going to the gym every day.

You do get looked down upon if you are a larger person and you don’t go to the gym every day. Right. And so I talk a lot. Well, not a lot. I talk sometimes mm-hmm.

Online about being a fit person because I am a fit person. you know, my doctor has said that I have higher blood pressure that I am medicated for and otherwise I have a resting heart rate that’s about 60 and I. Work out a lot, almost every day. And I am mindful of what I eat and I feel fantastic and I have lots of energy.

I also weigh about 215 pounds. So I will have people say, well, you’re not fit. You are morbidly obese. And what you’re doing isn’t working. And if you were really healthy, you’d be a lot smaller than that. And I used to carry so much shame about that, and then I one day decided I was just gonna stop.

You know? I think that was my mindset shift. I don’t know when it hit, but eventually I was just like, no, you don’t get to tell me how to feel. this is my life. It’s my body. I know exactly how much effort I’m putting into things. I know what my limitations are. I know that my life is too busy for me to be constantly training and constantly watching every calorie and macronutrient and micronutrient that goes into my mouth and that I have.

All these other aspects of my life as well, and this is where I am the happiest and most successful and still able to maintain everything else in my life, and that idea can be applied to everything. How clean or messy your house is, your ratio of making meals versus ordering out the types of jobs.

We do in an economy where you can pick what job you do, there’s all these different things, whether you rent or own, if that is a choice for you. And for some of us it is not. I am a renter. I think there’s all of these different things that, people who rent are often seen as lesser to people who own property. And I know a lot of people, so I used to own property. I’ve owned three homes and now I rent are there downsides to renting? Absolutely there are. You know what some of the good sides are when things break in the house. I’m not staying up all night running numbers on how much it’s gonna cost me or whether my insurance is gonna cover it or anything else.

That’s my landlord’s problem. Right. That’s one of the upsides. Or if I decide that I just want to pick up and move when my lease is up, or now I month to month, I can just do that and go live somewhere else and try , another neighborhood. I don’t have to worry about putting my house on the market.

So I think it is a perspective shift. I love when people have me over and their houses are not super tidy. I love that. And also I have gone over to several people’s places, people that I’m close to and when I can see, when they tell me that they are struggling with how, you know, maybe they’re struggling with their mental health.

They’re feeling really overwhelmed. Maybe they’re dealing with illness or someone in their life is or whatever, and they’re having a really hard time keeping up with things. I used to clean homes for a living and I also love it and I also love to organize. So guess who spends the day cleaning up? It is one of my favorite things to do and there’s no judgment there.

So if we can all just shift our perspectives a little bit to stop. looking at things like HGTV as the standard for everything and looking at influencers who look like they have their lives together, or even the people down the block who look like they have their lives together and remember that nobody has their life together.

Not really. That would be so helpful for all of us.

[00:31:40] Lara: And look for the easy ways, right? Even if it’s not in your head the best way or the cheapest way, what is the way that you’re going to actually do the thing and allow yourself to do that? It can mean that some of the things you feel bad about can change.

And it doesn’t need to be perfect for you to stop feeling bad about it, like it really doesn’t. So allow yourself to find the easier ways to accept them as just as good or good enough. Good enough is fine a lot of the time. And when the option is not done or good enough, good enough is definitely better than not done.

[00:32:20] Rowan: And be as kind to yourself as you would be to someone you love who is struggling with something. Because I think we often forget that I can be very forgiving of somebody else’s struggles. we’ve talked about this before, if I have a friend who’s chronically late, but I am much, much harder.

On myself if I am late all the time, and so I just think that gentleness is the way forward. Gentleness and love is the way forward as it is with pretty much everything. But it has to start with us. So if we can just be kind to ourselves and give ourselves a break and opt out. Some of these societal expectations that are drilled into our heads that are not helping us live our best lives.

The ripple effect of doing that for yourself can be immense. Yeah.

[00:33:17] Lara: I also, I’ll come back to the You are Not lazy idea.

[00:33:22] Rowan: The name of your book,

[00:33:23] Lara: the name of my book, which is also true that some things it’s not lazy and we are not lazy. Also true. Anytime you think either you are being lazy or somebody else is being lazy, if that word pops into your head, ask yourself what probably is actually going on?

Are they overwhelmed? Are they feeling frozen? Are they trying to deal with something else? Are they simply just not engaged? Right? Like lazy itself is not really thing. So what is the underlying thing? So anytime you catch yourself telling yourself you’re lazy or somebody else is being lazy, I want you to see if you can think about what actually is the underlying thing and.

It just helps you have such a different perspective on yourself and other people.

[00:34:09] Rowan: I love that. I love that. Lazy is not a thing it’s often overwhelm or a need to rest or something else happening, but it’s not a moral failing ever. It’s never a moral failing.

[00:34:26] Lara: This has been a good conversation and I do think.

We’ll link to our very first episode on fatness because that was our very first one, so we’ll definitely link to that. If you’re new to the show, you should have a listen.

[00:34:36] Rowan: Thank you so much for joining us today. I have really loved chatting about this.

[00:34:40] Lara: Me too. I can talk about it anytime.

Everybody have a great week and we will be back soon.

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