In this episode, I spoke with Paul Hirsch, Professor of Environmental Studies at the State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry, where he directs graduate programs in environmental leadership and decision making. Hirsch’s research focuses on how societies navigate difficult environmental decisions involving competing values, uncertainty, and governance challenges.

The conversation explores Hirsch’s concept of “complex trade-offs”—the idea that environmental decisions rarely produce clear winners and losers, and that framing them as simple “win-win” outcomes can be misleading. They discuss how values, governance processes, and interdisciplinary dialogue shape decision-making in complex environmental debates, and what this perspective might mean for discussions around Deep-Sea Mining.

Timestamps

00:00:00 — Introduction00:01:38 — No Win-Win Decisions00:05:04 — Complexity & Ambiguity00:07:36 — Ordinary Language Thinking00:12:16 — Integrative vs Integrated00:14:58 — Fruit Salad Thinking00:18:43 — What Are Values?00:20:27 — Principles vs Pathways00:27:19 — Learning Together00:32:42 — Process Over Analysis00:33:52 — Workable Good00:36:34 — The Decision Isn’t the End00:37:45 — Three Lenses00:54:02 — Interdisciplinary Work00:59:04 — Research & Programs01:00:00 — Trust & Leadership01:01:00 — Finding a Workable Good

Papers Mentioned

* Hard Choices: Making Trade-offs Between Biodiversity Conservation and Human Well-Being (2011)

* Acknowledging Conservation Trade-offs and Embracing Complexity (2011)

* Navigating Complex Trade-Offs in Conservation and Development: An Integrative Framework (2013)

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