John Tucker used to be a literalist Christian, but says he has now rejected the 'belief paradigm' to move beyond either accepting or rejecting the claims of religion. In this conversation with Bart Campolo, John lays out how he sees truth now, and says that he thinks religious claims should be expressed only as catch-22s. An example of a catch-22: 'The only acceptable evidence for religious belief is evidence that is unacceptable.' Confused by this, Bart explores what John means by it.