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7 | Reinforcing the Right Systems: How Behavioral Science Solves Turnover with Dr. Heather McGee
When turnover feels endless, most leaders look for quick fixes: bonuses, new policies, tighter oversight.
Dr. Heather McGee from Western Michigan University invites us to pause and ask better questions. What if the problem isn’t people, but the systems that shape their behavior?
In this episode, Dr. McGee brings her decades of experience in Organizational Behavior Management (OBM) to show how the same scientific rigor we use in clinical settings can impact the workplace.
Listen in to learn how data, reinforcement, and environmental design can create teams that prosper—and stay.
In this conversation, Heather breaks down:
- The myth that everyone on your team is motivated by passion for the field.
- Why desperate hiring and “rosy” job ads fuel the turnover loop.
- How to apply the employee life cycle lens.
- The difference between retraining and fixing broken training systems.
- How recognition, autonomy, and psychological safety outperform monetary rewards.
- The danger of reinforcing the wrong behaviors (and how to measure what truly matters).
- What it really means to “analyze contingencies” across the organization.
Ideas Worth Sharing:
- “Not everyone finds this kind of work because that's what they've always dreamed of doing. For many folks coming in, especially at the entry level, they're there because they need a job, and this is a job.” - Dr. Heather McGee
- “Rather than focusing on what's wrong with them that they're not coming to work, it's time to start looking at what's wrong with the work environment that we're asking them to come to that is leading to people saying, ‘I can't do it today.’” - Dr. Heather McGee
- “If you train them once and they now need retraining, what's wrong with your training?” - Dr. Heather McGee
Resources mentioned:
- Book: Improving Performance: How to Manage the White Space on the Organizational Chart by Geary A. Rummler and Alan P. Brache
- OBM Network
- Western Michigan University OBM Program
About the Guest
Dr. Heather McGee is a Professor of Psychology and Chair of the Industrial/Organizational Behavior Management graduate programs at Western Michigan University. A leader in Organizational Behavior Management, she’s consulted across industries—from autism services to healthcare—helping organizations strengthen performance systems and workplace culture. Dr. McGee is the former Executive Director of the OBM Network, an associate editor for the Journal of Organizational Behavior Management, and serves on the boards of ALULA and Intermountain Centers for Human Development.
Connect with Holli:
Website: https://abacaresstaffing.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hollibeth
Connect with Heather:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heather-mcgee-8482b46
If today’s conversation sparked ideas for how to fix your own people systems, don’t stop here. Follow The People Contingency wherever you listen. And if
View all episodes
By Holli ClauserWhen turnover feels endless, most leaders look for quick fixes: bonuses, new policies, tighter oversight.
Dr. Heather McGee from Western Michigan University invites us to pause and ask better questions. What if the problem isn’t people, but the systems that shape their behavior?
In this episode, Dr. McGee brings her decades of experience in Organizational Behavior Management (OBM) to show how the same scientific rigor we use in clinical settings can impact the workplace.
Listen in to learn how data, reinforcement, and environmental design can create teams that prosper—and stay.
In this conversation, Heather breaks down:
- The myth that everyone on your team is motivated by passion for the field.
- Why desperate hiring and “rosy” job ads fuel the turnover loop.
- How to apply the employee life cycle lens.
- The difference between retraining and fixing broken training systems.
- How recognition, autonomy, and psychological safety outperform monetary rewards.
- The danger of reinforcing the wrong behaviors (and how to measure what truly matters).
- What it really means to “analyze contingencies” across the organization.
Ideas Worth Sharing:
- “Not everyone finds this kind of work because that's what they've always dreamed of doing. For many folks coming in, especially at the entry level, they're there because they need a job, and this is a job.” - Dr. Heather McGee
- “Rather than focusing on what's wrong with them that they're not coming to work, it's time to start looking at what's wrong with the work environment that we're asking them to come to that is leading to people saying, ‘I can't do it today.’” - Dr. Heather McGee
- “If you train them once and they now need retraining, what's wrong with your training?” - Dr. Heather McGee
Resources mentioned:
- Book: Improving Performance: How to Manage the White Space on the Organizational Chart by Geary A. Rummler and Alan P. Brache
- OBM Network
- Western Michigan University OBM Program
About the Guest
Dr. Heather McGee is a Professor of Psychology and Chair of the Industrial/Organizational Behavior Management graduate programs at Western Michigan University. A leader in Organizational Behavior Management, she’s consulted across industries—from autism services to healthcare—helping organizations strengthen performance systems and workplace culture. Dr. McGee is the former Executive Director of the OBM Network, an associate editor for the Journal of Organizational Behavior Management, and serves on the boards of ALULA and Intermountain Centers for Human Development.
Connect with Holli:
Website: https://abacaresstaffing.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hollibeth
Connect with Heather:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heather-mcgee-8482b46
If today’s conversation sparked ideas for how to fix your own people systems, don’t stop here. Follow The People Contingency wherever you listen. And if