In this episode of Quantization, Marcia Rioux and Jutta Treviranus are discussing the crisis for the indicators of convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities, Convention on the Rights of the Child, on the Rights of Women, for the sustainable development goals and many more. They are talking on how we measure success or failure of these programs with crude measurements designed and developed through the north-south dialogue, with middle-out or from the largest to smallest approaches. And how we should change the pattern by starting south-north conversation to be able to understand what's happening at the grassroots.