"There comes a watershed moment, when you leave your traditional mindset behind."  In this episode, Katie interviews David Perkins, a veteran church planter and one of our New Episcopal Community coaches.  He talks about a variety of conversions he had to undergo  - like giving up on worrying about the fate of people's eternal souls and becoming more concerned about their current well-being, and having to cast off his expectations of the way church "should be."  David also addresses the tension between "attractional" and "relational" church, and the ways we measure success.