We got a great response from on the last podcast featuring Kim Fox and Tim Stewart, so we asked them to come back for another round. In both healthcare and society we felt like there's been a strange tension between moments of optimism/hope and pessimism thanks to the slog of ongoing bad news and now the third surge of COVID-19. So, we asked Kim and Tim to talk about that. They are never people to sugarcoat things, and the resulting conversation is real talk for healthcare providers.