Our guest today reflects on the phrase sojourners and exiles in the world, used in 1 Peter 2:11. What does it mean for Christians to interact with "the world?" Is holiness simply the idea of saying no to certain activities and food that other Christians say yes to... or is it much more? This interview has a lot of give and take, and our guest asks that we "think out loud" with him as he honestly explores this topic of us being "resident aliens" in exile. Are we like Israel in the wilderness? Are we like Israel in exile in Babylon? Or, are we somewhere in between? Peter is quoting from the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint) from Genesis 23. Abraham is in Canaan our guest points out, and the fulfillment is the conquest under Joshua. Daniel foresees history of his time in Babylon. He sees the Kingdom of God in various forms. The forth kingdom will be small, unimpressive and yet becomes a mountain to fill the world. We reflect on re-thinking our models. We are living in land owned by our Lord and Savior Jesus. We await the day as the gospel advances, where the knowledge of the Lord covers the earth as the waters cover the sea. It is important that we don't deflect attention away from the final eschaton, where the Lord brings in the new heaven and earth. Yet at the same time, we must work and expect the long range advance of the gospel and victory of Christ until He has placed all enemies under His feet. We expect the transformation of culture. Our guest has his Juris Doctor (JD) Degree, he passed the bar, but then the Lord called him into the Christian ministry as a pastor of word and sacrament. Participants: Rev. Ben Miller, Dan Elmendorf