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It’s time for some straight talk.

No hype, no press release optimism, no corporate spin. Just two guys with some scar tissue—and a lot of history—talking about what’s really happening in the world of spatial computing/XR.

In this episode, I sit down with Kharis O’Connell—former design leader at AR headset startup: Meta (the original Meta), Google, and Amazon.

Kharis has been in the XR arena since before the game began. From early experiments with Nokia's Point & Find in 2007 to helping define zero-learning-curve design principles at (OG) Meta, he’s seen the promise, the collapse, and the recycled hype cycles firsthand.

But this isn’t just a walk down memory lane.

It’s a reckoning.

Kharis recently left the XR industry. He’s no longer building AR glasses or pitching immersive futures to execs in Silicon Valley boardrooms. And that’s what makes this conversation special. He’s honest. Candid. Unfiltered. It’s the kind of clarity you only get once you’re no longer trying to raise funding or ship a prototype.

Reasons to listen:

* If you’re in the spatial computing space and having doubts

* If you’ve ever wondered why AR hasn’t had its iPhone moment

* If you’re building in this space and unsure whether to keep going

We cover:

* The philosophical vision behind the original Meta and why it failed

* Why “zero learning curve” design is mostly a myth

* What really happened at Google’s stealth AR program (and why it shut down)

* The failure of imagination across today’s use cases (yes, cooking demos again)

* Whether Apple Vision Pro was our “iPhone moment” (spoiler: it wasn’t)

* How the obsession with technology becomes an echo chamber—and how Kharis broke out

* The one big question every builder should ask themselves: Who is this for—and at what cost?

This episode won’t give you all the neat answers. But it will definitely give you better questions.

And if you’re like me—still carrying a flicker of belief that this tech can nourish the soul, not just the shareholder—then maybe that’s enough to keep going.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dreammachines.ai