Ashley sits down with Jacob Tobia to discuss their book Before They Were Men. Together, they explore why Jacob avoids the phrase "toxic masculinity," what healthier models of masculinity could look like, and how the different places Jacob has lived have shaped their views on gender and gender nonconformity.

Books Mentioned:

Before They Were Men: Essays on Manhood, Compassion, and What Went Wrong by Jacob Tobia

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This episode was edited and produced by Renee Powers on the ancestral land of the Dakota people.

Original music by Amarissa

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