This conversation with Aaron Eduardo Zazueta and Nima Bahramalian is one of a 5-part International Evaluation Podcast series sponsored by the American Evaluation Association and the American Journal of Evaluation. Zenda Ofir and Deborah Rugg interview Aaron and Nima about their article on complex, systems-informed theories of change. Their article can be accessed in Volume 42, Issue 1 of the AJE.