Intern Ocean Dunbar joins Rangers William and Adrian to talk about her research into Anne Cruger.

William: Hey everyone and welcome to another episode of Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

[Intro sounds of drums, horses, muskets, swards, and men fighting]

William: I'm Ranger William from Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail.

Adrian: And I'm Ranger Adrian from Ninety Six National Historic site.

William: And together we will explore some of the well-known and not so known stories from the American Revolution here in the American South. Let's dive into it.

[sounds of drums, horses, muskets, swards, and men fighting]

Adrian: Alright. Well, thanks for joining us today. Today we have a special episode. We are joined by our HBCUI intern at Ninety Six National Historic Site, Ocean Dunbar. Ocean tell us a little bit about yourself.

Ocean: Hi first of all like say thank all to both of y'all for having me on to the podcast. This is very nice. A little about myself. I'm a rising senior at Prairie View A&M University, about 40 minutes outside of Houston. I’m majoring in History and minor Af-Am studies and I just like to learn new stuff everyday.

Adrian: What's Af-Am studies?

Ocean: African-American studies.

Adrian: Ohh OK awesome.

William: So Ocean, can you tell us a little bit about this, this program that you're in? What is the HBCUI intern program and what what does that all stand for?

Ocean: Ohh well HBCU does stand for historically black colleges and universities, and then the I is for intern in interp and the program is a gateway to connect HBCU students who want to connect with the National Park Services or connect with the youth. It's all about like, interpretation, education and stuff like that.

William: Very cool, very cool.

Adrian: So what got you interested in being part of the HBCUI program?

Ocean: Well, at first I would say, I was looking for internships. I was in my junior year. I was like, oh, I need an internship. Something to do with my major and being a history major some might think there’s not a lot to do in our field or we're overshadowed, we don't really get our credit, it's all about, you know, the nursing majors, the engineering, the business. Well, that's for my school. But I was looking at internships and I came across um Greening Youth Foundation and I did like the description. I was reading about it. I applied you know had an interview, had an interview with Josh and Adrian at the park. I really loved that. And they really umm while doing the interview they said a lot of things that really I gravitated towards, caught my attention and it's not only like a job or intern its, I'm actually learning. That's the thing I'm learning and I will use these skills outside of the internship as well.

Adrian: I'm glad to hear that. [Laugh]

William: I think it's a great point that you made there Ocean. Is that with this with this program, this internship, you know, it's not just a chance to give students a job or experience, but there is something that the interns are helping the park with. There's programs that the interns are helping with, but also it's skills, it's knowledge that the park is then able to give back to the intern and help them further their not only academics, but their professional career. I think it's really nice that you pointed that out. So as you've been kind of learning about these stories and learning about these topics, what do you think is one that you've come across that you would say is kind of one of the more interesting ones about the Revolutionary War sites? You know what is something that's really spoken to resonated with you during your internship?

Ocean: Umm, I have to say for sure the story of Anne Cruger. I actually did a little small presentation about her to the SAR. Anne’s story was so extraordinary. She just been through so much. For those who not familiar with Anne Cruger, she is the wife of John Cruger the leader of the Loyalists and they were specifically here in Ninety Six and other places as in Savannah and stuff like that. As I researched on Anne and her experience while following John to war, she's been through a lot of things. A lot of traumatic things. And we don't really see that when we're speaking about revolutionary figures is really about the men, but not so much of women. And I thought that was kind of cool, like, reading on her story and stuff.

Adrian: So what's some of the stuff she went through?

Ocean: Ohh well let's see the first thing she went through was when she was in Bloomingdale, New York where she lives, where her family lives. Some Patriots actually broke in through their home, ransacked it and burned it down, but one was actually planning on to cause harm to Anne and her family, but he changed his mind. Luckily. And the family ended up getting separated and was separated, she was lost into the woods. She had to walk several miles in the cold. It was October, I believe.

Adrian: Up north too.

Ocean: Yeah, in New York in October. It’s dark. You you don't know where to go, but luckily someone umm took her in for a time being. She did end up reuniting with her family and after that she decided to follow John into war almost. So she headed to Savannah on a ship and on her way to Savannah, it actually was a tropical storm. And the tropical storm end up knocking over her fleet or some sort of destroying the boat and they had to go overboard. But before she you know, she could drown, luckily she didn't. The French actually scooped her up, which is weird.

Adrian: Ironic.

Ocean: Yeah. Ironic, but she described her time with the French as they were polite to her, despite her being a loyalist coming from a loyalist family. But as she was on the ship, umm, the French actually engaged in war with the British at Savannah and at the Siege of Savannah. And it's crazy because you're on this ship. Meanwhile, you're on this enemy ship that's aiming towards your husband and like you're just on the ship, like oh my gosh, or they gonna kill my husband.

Stewart: I hope one of these balls doesn't hit him.

Ocean: Exactly. And that's not like officially all that she went through just to be there. But that's like the beginning of what she went through. Stuff like that.

William: That's amazing because if our listeners aren't familiar you know this French assault on Savannah, I believe that's in in ‘79…

Adrian: Yeah.

William: You know it, it is this massive campaign. It is a thousands upon thousands of American and French troops attacking the British held city of Savannah, Georgia. Massive slaughter is gonna take place. A lot of American and French leaders are gonna lose their lives in the assault on the city, and I can't imagine being Anne, being on this French ship out in the harbor watching and hearing this battle take place because, I I know you know, Savannah is upriver a little bit. It's not right there on the coast, but it's definitely close enough that you can hear what's happening if you if not see in the smoke that that, that that is amazing.

Adrian: And that your loved one is is out there somewhere.

William: Right, knowing that your husband is involved in that. Ocean, do we know how or when Anne is able to rejoin John?

Ocean: Umm well after the siege or whatever. The French was a little bit unsuccessful, so they decided to go back, but they did drop her off at the coastline and she did shortly reunite with John. And then after that, that's where they come to Ninety Six. And as you know, the siege of Ninety Six, 28 days, and her being in the Fort but not really because when the siege started, she actually took refuge about a mile away into a minister home. But then again, she was still close enough to the battle to hear. So second time she was put in this predicament like “Ohh is my husband's gonna make it?”

William: Wow, you know, so many of our stories talk about these, these battles where there are local people who can hear what's going on and they know they have loved ones involved. But what you're talking about with Anne's story is the life of a follower. The the life of one of these women that has decided it is safer it is better for me for my family if I go with the army, go with the regiment and having to go through the trials of this, the campaign life, the hardships, the diet, the weather, the the physical exertion. But then also this roller coaster of there's a battle, did he make it OK? He's safe. Oh, there's another battle. Is he gonna make it OK, he’s safe. So how do we know what Anne is going through? Did she leave behind any kind of journal or diary, or is it is it letters? Where are you finding the information about Anne Cruger?

Ocean: There are like little notebooks, as she said when she recounted her, when she did recount her experience with the French. She did write about that, and there's also in some books or claiming accounts and stuff, and then we can look back on, like the dates of, OK, Cruger was here during that time and stuff like that. So like adds up.

Adrian: What's something that you've discovered that you think most people don't know or understand about the American Revolution just in general or specifically and you think that it's important that they remember or learn about it?

Ocean: Umm well, I did just say Anne Cruger, but besides that, I say South Carolina roll overall in the revolution, the southern campaign. Being from Texas and Arkansas, you know those states didn't exist at the time of the revolution, so doesn’t kind of play a big thing in our own what is taught down there, to say, which battles or which war get more attention. So actually South Carolina role as a whole was very important to even discuss the, when speaking about the revolution. Like I know just, over 200 battles…

Adrian: [laught] Yeah.

Ocean: …that happened, a lot more than any other state. And I thought that was interesting.

Adrian: Yeah, awesome. Yeah, that, that's true. I mean you, you've seen we get a lot of people coming in and being like I didn’t even know there was a battle in South Carolina or, you know…

Ocean: It was multiple battles!

Adrian: I didn’t know the revolution went farther south than Yorktown!

Ocean: Yeah.

William: Right, right, Yeah, it's always the great question is I didn't know there was something this far South or this far West and it's like, oh, man, do I have some maps to show you! We could talk for a long time.

Adrian: Right. Well, and I think that's part of the reason we're doing this podcast, just bring awareness to not just South Carolina, but all the stuff that went on in the South during the revolution.

William: Absolutely. So Ocean with all this research you've done and all these great stories that you're uncovering, not only this interest in South Carolina's role in the Southern campaign and in the American Revolution, the experiences of Anne Cruger and women like her, what is something that you you've kind of done with this? What is a any kind of program project? What's something that's gonna be kind of your legacy there at Ninety Six National Historic site?

Ocean: Um well, right now I am working on an idea of an exhibit for Anne for herself. But what have I done so far? Umm. I have did a presentation over Anne with the SAR so so that was pretty nice. I got to kind of network and stuff like that and some people were like they wasn't aware of the things that Anne went through.

Adrian: So yeah, the SAR was asking her to send them her talk. They were like what?

William: No for sure, because when you're looking at at the story of Anne, you know it's a big, big push, it's a big desire with the National Park Service, especially as we're coming up on the 250th anniversary of the American Revolution at the time of this recording, we're about two years away from it, really starting up. We're wanting to highlight these stories, these underrepresented, these hidden stories. So here you not only have a a loyalist, but a loyalist woman, so somebody who's story, who their their narrative maybe isn't included in a lot of the traditional histories. A lot of the traditional the the grand narrative, you could say of the American Revolution. So not only is this providing a little bit of a window into the experiences of a woman who's caught up in the Southern campaign, but a woman on the loyalist side. From a loyalist family. So it's it's fascinating research. I'm really happy to hear that this is what your program was about.

Adrian: So you know, we're like Williams said, we're approaching the 250, the American 250, and it's only two years away for Ninety Six, really. But we'll have other things, other events throughout that time, and of course, all the other parks will have events and stuff when their anniversaries are as well. But what are some projects or ideas that you think we should work toward for the 250th and even beyond, say in another 250 years, for the 500th anniversary?

Ocean: I think for sure, working more like the community, the Youth, because you know the youth are our future. So to teach them the history it will live on through them. We can't just have this history and not share it properly with the youth.

Adrian: Yeah.

Ocean: So I think for sure educating the youth more, more memorials, more research to just shine light on. There's always something new, like, even though this happened 250 years ago, because our country is very young, very young compared to other countries in the world. But at the same time, we do have a lots a lots of history. Even our founding history, it's a lot to uncover that still isn't uncovered, so this is just a start.

Adrian: Still always learning.

Ocean: Yeah, always learning.

William: Did you really just say the children are our future? Did you really pull that line?

Ocean: I think that.

Adrian: Well, she said the youth, youth, so she didn't quite say it exactly like that.

William: Ohh we, people know what she meant. OK, semantics aside.

Ocean: It's true!

Adrian: [laughing] So Ocean's told us about her awesome project and I did wanna let everybody know that it might be up by the time this episode is released, but it might not be up, but hopefully in the near future we will get the research that she's done on Anne Delancey up on the website. It should be going under the people tab that's under the history section. And we'll have, I think there's an area for like women and will definitely, definitely have it there. And then we might be able to work some of it into other programs and stuff like that, so hopefully we'll be hearing a little bit more about Anne and some of the other women and other, other stories.

William: Now Adrian I do want to point something out. We've been talking about Anne Cruger for this episode, and you called her Anne Delancey.

Adrian: I did.

William: So what other cool connection do we have with Anne that might be of interest to our listeners?

Adrian: So Ann was the daughter of… I forget his first name.

Ocean: Oliver.

Adrian: That's it. Oliver Delancey, who started Delancey Brigade, which is how Cruger came to be the commander for the DeLancey’s Brigade that was here at Ninety Six.

Ocean: Because he had no prior, he had no prior military experience.

Adrian: Yeah.

Ocean: He was like the Governor of New York.

Adrian: Yeah.

Ocean: That didn’t work out. So I was now I'm ready to fight, yeah.

William: So we're looking at not only is this going to be the story of a loyalist woman, but it's it's the story of the wife, of a loyalist provincial officer who is serving in the Southern Campaign in the siege of Ninety Six. And she's also the daughter of a prominent loyalist, helping raise provincial regiments to assist the British Army. I think this is really interesting to point out and to talk about because so many times you see this argument, especially looking at the 18th century of coverture where the woman does not have these legal rights outside of her husband or her father. So they kind of adapted that mentality into political thought and say, OK, well, the woman does not have a political leaning herself. It's just whatever her husband has. Like we see in some accounts of where the, the husband had been a loyalist during the war, and though the wife is able to say, well, that was his belief, not mine.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: But here not only is she the the daughter of a prominent loyalist, she is the wife of a loyalist officer with him throughout the entire campaign. So I think this is pretty safe to say that her opinions, her, her beliefs, her thoughts were in line with her family, that she herself is a loyalist following her conscience and following her beliefs. Do you all agree that that's kind of fair to say? Ocean: I would say so, but then again, even if it wasn't her beliefs she couldn't just step outside of it and like, no, this is wrong. I'm with them.

Adrian: Especially when you're in higher society.

Ocean: Exactly. And that's all that she knows. So it's not wrong for her.

William: And especially like I believe when you started out, we were talking about her home being pillaged and burned by Patriots. And maybe one of those situations where, politics aside, you cannot align yourself with the party that would do that.

Adrian: Yeah.

Ocean: Right. Yeah. But I would say Ninety Six doesn't really get its credit though like when it comes to the, the war itself or even the southern campaign itself, I just feel like it didn't get a lot of recognition as it should have. Like you can kind of say you know, it's been the first the sight of the first land battle South of New England that that's something. And then almost like, you know, the siege happened in 1781. So it was there from the beginning of the war up until then, almost the end.

Adrian: Yeah, I'm always like we're bookends!

Ocean: Yeah. And even before the revolution, you know, with the Cherokee War and stuff like that. So Ninety Six actually you know, had a lot of history.

Adrian: A lot happening.

Ocean: A lot happened in the small town.

William: And here's Anne Cruger being a witness to a big part of that.

Adrian: Alright, so that's really cool about, Anne Delancey. Why do you think it's important that we research people like her and, you know, learn more about people like her underrepresented and all that stuff?

Ocean: I know I'm saying a lot of cliche themes on this podcast, but you know it's it's the history. We don't know where we're going if we don't know, like, you know, the history of then. And then I remember we were at the Kings Mountain… Kings Mountain? Was it Cowpens? I can’t remember. We were on this tour. A group of elementary school children came and they were asking about, well, one little girl was like, where were the women during the war? And then one little boys like they didn't fight, this and that, and then tour guide like well, that's not true. So it's like, you know, not mis-education, but just it's not known.

Adrian: Perception.

Ocean: Yeah. Perception of that and the little girl just thought it was so cool. So things like that. You learn a lot. It's not just… like you said, it’s just a different perception of all you know, it's not just one sided and stuff like this, a one-sided history. You know what I mean?

Adrian: Yeah, you don't have much of a story if you only have one side of it, yeah.

William: If that's not a true statement right there, you can't go off of a one-sided history. This kind of ties in with something that we were actually discussing with another HBCUI, Cassie Chandler, who was working at Cowpens National Battlefield a little bit about perspectives and perception like you were saying. Here is this elementary school field trip who they've always kind of heard once description of the American Revolution. It's always soldier centric. It's fighting men. It is men leaders. And so here's this, this student, this child asking well, where's the bigger picture? She saw the narrative. She saw what was being presented and she saw the gap. So here we are trying to do this research. Here you are sharing this information about Anne Cruger, filling that void, and completing that full picture. That's really cool.

Adrian: We need that child to grow up and be the next park ranger.

William: Asking the questions exactly. That that is Park Ranger in the making, they just didn't know it yet.

Adrian: Yep. Alright, well, thank you, Ocean, for being willing to sit in with me and Will and let us grill you on, on Anne Delancey. Just a reminder to everybody, we will hopefully be putting the research that Ocean's been doing this summer on the website, if not some other places and we should be able to get that up under the history section and the people section. So if you're interested, you know, hopefully we'll get that up there rather sooner rather than later. Thanks for joining us.

Ocean: Thank you all for having me.

Adrian: This concludes another episode of Southern War. I’m Ranger Adrian at Ninety Six National Historic site. Ninety Six can be found at nps.gov/N I S I or at our Facebook page for Ninety Six National Historic Site.

[Outro sounds of drums, muskets, horses, and men fighting]

William: And I'm Ranger William with Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail. Same as Ranger Adrian, our website www.nps.gov/O V V I and our social media Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail. But that's gonna conclude another episode of Southern War, the podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. So thank you for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and we’ll see you next time when we revisit the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

Adrian: Bye!