#359: Lara, Link, and Kayla discuss anti-heroes, what they are, why we find them compelling, and provide a couple of examples of our favorites.

Link Keller 0:11
Welcome to GT radio on the Geek Therapy network, where we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media that we care about. Also, media we don’t like sometimes that’s a fun way to bond. But we’re not talking about that. Today

Link Keller 0:30
Josué is gone and link goes off the rails.

Link Keller 0:30
Today, we’re gonna be yucking all the yums every yum. No, I’m just kidding. I would never I would never do such a thing. Because I don’t want Josué to be mad at me. Please don’t be mad at me. Just kidding. We are here. Today I am joined by my dear co host, Lara.

Lara Taylor 0:49
Hello,

Link Keller 0:50
and valuable, most valuable guest host Kayla,

Kayla Devorak 0:58
hello. Most Valuable guesthost I’ll take it,

Lara Taylor 1:04
MVGH.

Link Keller 1:06
the P is silent. Today, we are going to be talking about anti heroes, I think this is going to be a fun conversation, I’m excited to talk about some examples of anti heroes that we like and resonate with. But before we do that, let’s let’s sort of suss out and get a working definition for what an antihero is because, you know, not everybody uses words the same way. Which is great, and a lovely thing about humans, but makes for conversations to be a little weird sometimes. So let’s talk about a way what does an antihero mean to you, Lara?

Lara Taylor 1:46
Some typically somebody that is put into a hero role and does not want to be. usually I mean, we’re gonna get into all the characters later. But like somebody who if you’re thinking about hero’s journey, which people have opinions about the hero’s journey, but the person really doesn’t want to hear the call really doesn’t want to they are not the kind of person that you would usually picture as a hero either. So that’s my working definition. There’s probably some more nuance on it. But I’ve been stuck in the therapy office all day.

Link Keller 2:28
You spent all your your nuance points already today. How about you Kayla, what do you think?

Kayla Devorak 2:36
Well, I think for me, when I think about anti heroes, I often think about people who just make such different choices than a traditional hero does. But still gets to kind of the same end place that a hero does. It may be a more interesting way and maybe more challenging to their own internal complexities.

Lara Taylor 3:09
Listen, listeners, Josué abandoned us to go to San Diego Comic Con, and said, You know what, you can bring Kayla on and she can talk about whatever she wants.

Kayla Devorak 3:19
this is true

Lara Taylor 3:19
And so Kayla said anti heroes, because she loves them. So

Kayla Devorak 3:25
I do they are my favorite character trope

Link Keller 3:31
Oh, yeah, so for me, the way I conceptualize an antihero is a character that fulfills the role of a hero in the actions taken within the story, but their motivations are very different. Whether that’s, you know, being greedy or having other you know, value systems that we don’t generally connect to heroism, or if it is that the choices that they make are the outcome is heroic, but the choice is not heroic, that sort of thing. Basically coming down to they are heroes but their their values and their motivations are distinct from the traditional hero. And I think that makes them more interesting.

Kayla Devorak 4:26
They are not a Steve Rogers. Yes,

Lara Taylor 4:29
I do like me some Steve Rogers, but I’ve talked about him on the show a million times one of my favorite

Kayla Devorak 4:36
you have? I am shocked

Lara Taylor 4:38
a million times. Not just but I talk about one of my favorite characters of it. I like villains but I also like villains turned heroes right so like, once upon a time, Regina is one of my favorite characters. Because there’s nuance and like I I’m my nuanced points are gone, but I I love the nuanced characters that like it’s a gray area like nobody is all. Not all good and not all bad. Yeah.

Link Keller 5:19
Okay, is there a specific antihero you would like to start with Kayla?

Kayla Devorak 5:24
I have so many. And when I made my list, I was like, Oh no, I don’t know how many of these are going to be really familiar to the rest of you. And I doubt any of you are going to read any of the books in a day. So

Lara Taylor 5:44
what?!

Kayla Devorak 5:44
But the one that actually kind of led me to being like I really want to talk about anti heroes, mostly because I was really immersed in the book is Baru Cormorant, which is from the the masquerade series, I find her and her choices so fascinating. And obviously, it can’t talk to I don’t know if you guys are going to read those books, I highly recommend them. They’re very distressing, though is,

Link Keller 6:15
is there a way to discuss the antihero-ness without spoiling the plot?

Kayla Devorak 6:22
Yeah, so basically, she got a lot of like, colonization themes. And so she’s basically taken from her home, her home, land, and brought into this larger empire. But she’s like, brilliant, and so she has decided that she’s going to basically destroy the system from within. However, the choices she makes throughout the whole thing is very, very selfish, like so selfish, and also consistently forgets that other people are also playing the game. And so she’s often like, I’ve made this really brilliant move. And then a chapter later, she’s like, Oh, no, I forgot that there’s other pieces on the board. But it makes ultimately, in the first book makes, like the ultimate sacrifice for a relatively good reason. But it really messes her up. And then she just continues to, like use that to leverage her really shitty choices of where she’s like continuing to sacrifice people for this cause, because now she’s so invested in destroying the empire in this way, that if she doesn’t keep moving forward, all of those sacrifices she has made are like for nothing. And then what was it for? And it’s to the point where like, it breaks her psyche at the end of the first book. Like, it’s such a fascinating, like in book two. It’s like she in Book Two, she literally has cannot see out of her one half of one half is completely blind. But there’s like no real connection, like, because people are like, No, you’re moving it. What’s happening here. There’s three books in the series so far. I have not read the third one, which is titled The tyrant Baru Cormorant. And then there’s a fourth book coming, but there’s no release date yet. It’s fantastic. It’s really devastating. But it’s also like a really diverse story. There’s diverse characters. There’s diverse relationships. And there are people who are way more like morally sound, but she consistently makes really fucked up choices. But you know that her ultimate goal is to save her home her homeland and destroy the group that basically destroyed her people and killed her dad. Yeah,

Link Keller 9:10
nice.

Kayla Devorak 9:10
I love her. I appreciate I like love the shit out of her. I’m like, you make such terrible choices. But I really want you to win.

Link Keller 9:19
I think there’s something really validating about reading a story where you get to watch your character. Absolutely fall for the sunk cost fallacy.

Kayla Devorak 9:28
Yes.

Link Keller 9:29
There’s, I get su...