On this episode, host Dr. Joy James sits down with Madi Heater and Nick Perkins, two passionate students from Appalachian State University who serve as National Park Trust College Ambassadors. As leaders of the App State National Park Trust Club, Madi and Nick share their journeys into outdoor recreation, their love for nature, and their mission to make the outdoors accessible to all students. From birdwatching and fishing to trail stewardship and caving expeditions, their experiences highlight the transformative power of outdoor engagement. Through their work, they not only foster a deeper appreciation for national parks but also build a thriving community of like-minded adventurers. This episode delves into their personal connections with nature, the challenges and joys of outdoor recreation, and the impact of their roles as ambassadors, inspiring others to step outside and explore the world around them.

Show Notes

Madi Heater, [email protected]

National Park Trust Club

Shenandoah National Park- Nick

Birding apps. Merlin & eBird

Fishing 

Some of the activities discussed in this episode like caving, hiking, and fishing are offered as classes here

How to join clubs is through “Engage” also remember that the National Park Trust Club is free and has no dues 

Transcript

Becki Battista:

Welcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity, where we encourage you to get outside and keep going outside. Here, we will share Appalachian state stories that entertain, inspire, and inform listeners about living an active outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story, the goal to get you outside and keep you going outside to improve your overall wellness. This podcast is presented by the HOPE Lab, where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise, and play on the health, the environment, and human development. The vision of the HOPE Lab is to continue developing the foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise, and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out at hopelab.appstate.edu.

Hi, my name is Becki Batiste and I'm a professor in exercise science at Appalachian State University, and a self-proclaimed outdoor physical activity addict. I'm your host for today's episode of the Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast. In today's episode, Dr. Joy James, a professor of Recreation Management, is joined by Madi Heater and Nick Perkins from the App State National Park Trust Club. They share their journey to becoming National Park College ambassadors, highlight some of the exciting activities they've organized as club leaders, and reflect on their experiences as ambassadors and their passion for engaging fellow students with the outdoors.

Joy James:

All right. Welcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast. Today we have two guests here, Nick Perkins and Madi Heater. They're going to be talking not only about their outdoor experiences, but their work here at Appalachian State University as the National Park College Ambassadors. What I'm going to do is have each of you introduce yourself, if you'll tell us your major and your favorite national park.

Madi Heater:

All right. Yeah. My name is Madi Heater. I am a double major here at App State. I am majoring in recreation management and environmental science. My favorite national park would probably have to be maybe Congaree. I've grown up around Congaree because I'm from South Carolina, so spent a lot of time in Congaree National Parks.

Joy James:

Side note, I got the lottery for the synchronous fireflies at Congaree. In two weeks I'm going to be down there.

Madi Heater:

That's so cool.

Joy James:

How about you, Nick?

Nick Perkins:

Yeah. My name's Nick Perkins. I'm a recreation management major. And I guess my favorite national park would be Shenandoah. I've worked there and I spent a lot of time there.

Joy James:

Awesome.

Nick Perkins:

Yeah.

Joy James:

Awesome. How did you first get interested in the outdoors?

Nick Perkins:

I would say my family. They're not big outdoors people, it's not like they go camping and hiking all the time. But I would say just playing in the woods outside my house, that's where I wanted to be. That was my comfort place. So, I just ran with that. I'm happy doing this. So, I want to continue being outside.

Madi Heater:

Yeah. For me, I remember as a kid we used to go to this thing called BirdFest that was actually celebrating some random donkey named Bird. But you would go out and it was like this three-day festival where you just set up tents. And then, there was just always bluegrass music playing to celebrate Bird, the donkey. That was my first experience. But I think also my experience at YMCA Camp Greenville, going there as a camper and then being there as a counselor was really where I first did my deep dive into the outdoors.

Joy James:

Awesome. All right. So from those activities, what is now your favorite activity to do in the outdoors?

Madi Heater:

I think, for me personally, I've taken up birdwatching lately. I have a little wooded area behind my house here and I will sit outside for hours and just watch the birds come by.

Joy James:

Do you use the Merlin bird ID?

Madi Heater:

I do. Yeah. I've got Merlin and eBird.

Joy James:

Which do you like better?

Madi Heater:

I like Merlin just because it's based off of the bird calls, and that's been my goal, is to learn the birds by their calls. So, it helps me to improve that knowledge. But eBird has a bigger database, so it's more scientific than Merlin. But they're both awesome.

Joy James:

That's wonderful.

Madi Heater:

Yeah.

Joy James:

Shameless plug here, we had a podcast where we interviewed a serious birder who was like the Audubon Youth Birder of the Year, and she was a biology student here. It is an awesome interview, if any of you want to check that out.

Madi Heater:

For sure. It sounds awesome.

Joy James:

Nick.

Nick Perkins:

I would say fishing is my favorite. Even though I go hiking a lot, a lot of times when you're hiking you're just putting your head down and you're not really appreciating what's around you until you stop at a scenic place. By fishing, you're there, you're in nature, and you could just sit there and bask it and appreciate it. And that's my favorite part. And sometimes you catch a big fish and that's really exciting.

Joy James:

I've had people tell me that even if you don't catch a fish, it's still great.

Nick Perkins:

Oh, yeah. There's plenty of times where I've gone fishing and haven't caught anything.

Joy James:

Yeah. Do you fly fish? Do you cast?

Nick Perkins:

Mostly just rod and reel. I have been trying to learn how to fly fish, but not as much my thing.

Joy James:

Okay. I think App State has a health physical activity with fly-fishing, if you wanted to...

Nick Perkins:

Yeah.

Joy James:

I've seen them out there.

Madi Heater:

There's also a club.

Nick Perkins:

Okay.

Madi Heater:

But we actually, shameless plug for our club, last weekend we had our fishing trip. So, we actually took a bunch of people up to Price Lake and practiced both rod and reel and fly-fishing with a few students from App State.

Joy James:

That's awesome. Tell us the name of your club.

Madi Heater:

We are the National Park Trust Club here at App State.

Joy James:

That's fabulous. We'll be talking more about that as we move along. Let me finish up with two more questions. How do you think you became comfortable in the outdoors? Nick, you mentioned you played a lot. You mentioned, Madi, that you were going to this festival and camping. What about that made you comfortable to want to spend time in the outdoors?

Madi Heater:

I think a big thing for me was just learning more about the outdoors and the environment surrounding me. So, once I was able to identify the trees, then I had a lot more of a personal connection to them, and that made me want to spend more time outdoors to learn more trees and learn more information about the outdoors. So really, just getting that personal connection in there, that was the biggest thing for me in getting comfortable being outside.

Joy James:

Awesome.

Nick Perkins:

Yeah. I agree with Madi. As I've started to learn more about the different kinds of trees and birds and animals and how they all interact, I definitely have a greater appreciation, and I get excited when I see little things I don't see often. But also, I spent so much time outside as a kid, I just prefer to be outside. I don't like to be cooped up inside. That's just my comfort place in that sense.

Joy James:

A space that you feel comfortable.

Nick Perkins:

Yeah.

Joy James:

I know the outdoors, even though there's so much going on, it calms me even though there's a lot of activity. It's different than being indoors.

Nick Perkins:

Especially if I'm able to get away from people, be there on my own.

Joy James:

So, solitary.

Nick Perkins:

Mm-hmm.

Madi Heater:

Yeah.

Joy James:

Well, and the other thing think's interesting, you both mentioned it, with fishing, you need to know what fish, you need to be able to identify where they are. So, you're learning natural history and you're making personal connections by identifying the trees and all that for our recreation, and then helps us connect and then we want to learn more.

So to me, it's always fascinating to hear how people become comfortable in outdoor settings. Do you have a story about an outdoor experience that was very influential for you? It could be a funny story, a lesson learned story, or this is why I became the major that I am, or this is why I want to spend time in the outdoors.

Madi Heater:

Yeah. I think this isn't necessarily specifically for the outdoors, but specifically for the stars. At camp, we used to have this massive field, and at night we'd go lay in the middle of the field and there's no light pollution at camp, so you can see all of the stars. It literally just looks like you're looking up at a glass dome sitting on top of you with just hundreds of thousands of stars. I think that moment has always really stuck with me, just how vast the universe, but also just how small we are and how much there is out there in the natural world other than people.

Joy James:

Awesome. Do you still get out to watch the stars?

Madi Heater:

For sure. Yeah.

Joy James:

We're very lucky here we have Dark Sky. How about you?

Nick Perkins:

My grandparents live in Arkansas and I visit my grandpa a lot and we like to go hunting together, and we've been doing that since I was pretty young. And I remember, I have this one vivid memory of us sitting in the blind, we'd been there for a couple of hours, I was getting kind of bored. I was wanting to leave. And then, I noticed something up in the tree. There was three baby raccoons. They're trying to be quiet, but they're all just also bored, so they're just playing around. And I was like, wow, if I wasn't sitting here for hours, I wouldn't have seen that. And I don't think I've seen a baby raccoon since. But that really just gave me appreciation, I guess.

Joy James:

Yeah. That's awesome.

Nick Perkins:

Yeah.

Joy James:

You've said this a couple times, being out helps you see things you wouldn't see on a normal basis. And in the outdoors random things happen. The stars are always out there, but there's different experiences with the stars. You see a shooting star. And then, like you say, right now I'm really excited because the wildflowers are popping. And so, it's like an Easter egg hunt going out to find those Easter eggs or see the warblers that are coming in.

Becki Battista:

I love how Madi enjoys gazing at the stars at night reminding us of our small place in this very vast world. Nick shared a heartwarming childhood memory of watching baby raccoons play with his grandfather. I really appreciate how they highlighted the unpredictability of nature, with each season bringing its own unique stories. You can certainly begin to hear why these two students have become National Park Ambassadors at App State, serving as liaisons to promote and celebrate our national parks.

Today's episode is proudly sponsored by the HOPE Lab. At the HOPE Lab, we're committed to finding creative ways to promote outdoor activity. Visit appstate.hopelab.edu to explore the benefits of spending time outdoors. Let's return to the interview to delve deeper into their roles as National Park ambassadors.

Joy James:

I'd really like to get into talking about why we brought you here. First, I wanted to acknowledge how proud I am and thrilled that y'all were able to become the National Park Trust College Ambassadors. And I want to share with the community what college ambassadors do, and also acknowledge that y'all are the first college ambassadors for App State. So, share with us what you've done, the groundwork you've laid and what you're hoping to do.

Nick Perkins:

Yeah. Simple terms, we are the bridge between the National Park Trust and our school here. And the goal of National Park Trust is to get people interested in outdoors, especially people who don't have background in recreation and don't feel like they have access to those activities. Getting those people involved in caring about nature and just given them new experiences. And also, there's a community aspect as well. That's why we formed the club, not just to be ambassadors, but also create a community of people that we could reach out to with these things and hopefully that they tell their friends.

Joy James:

Awesome. What activities has your club organization done or what have you done while you've been here?

Madi Heater:

We do a bunch of different stuff. We've done a few stewardship events. We've gone up to the Blue Ridge Parkway and worked with the volunteers in the parks to clean the Asutsi Trail, to cut down dead limbs, cut back branches, and get it ready for the winter season. We've also cleaned up Boone Creek on campus. We've planted trees with the Watauga River Keepers. And then, we also do some more fun stuff. Earlier this year we went to Worley's Cave, we did a caving expedition over in Tennessee. It only cost participants $10 to come out with us. Everything was provided once they got there. We've also been fishing. That's another thing, our club has a ton of fishing rods. We've been working with the Department of Sustainability, we've been keeping stuff there and partnering. They've also helped us out with some events.

Joy James:

Nice.

Madi Heater:

And we held our first annual trivia night.

Joy James:

Where did you do that at?

Madi Heater:

Actually, just right here on campus. It was over in Rankin Science.

Joy James:

And how many members do y'all have?

Madi Heater:

On Engage, I believe our official member count is about 55 people.

Joy James:

That's awesome for your first year of a club.

Madi Heater:

Yeah. But we've had, I think, over 100 different people come out and come to our events in one way or another. It's been really awesome getting to work with students on campus and see what they want, not just what we want.

Joy James:

I love the mix of stewardship and fun, really represents well, I'm sure, what the National Park Trust Fund is trying to get out. Let's do stewardship and also engage with our public lands.

Madi Heater:

Yeah, for sure.

Joy James:

As Madi was talking about the club, and one of the things, I think, y'all had to do to become a club is you had to make a constitution, you had to have a certain amount of members and a board. And this is through Student Affairs, they have a clubs program that anybody can create a club based on what they're interested in. It has this online presence called Engage is where clubs are able to interact with each other and get people to RSVP if you want to. You can invite campus-wide, it could be invite only.

And the other thing, they have funds for our clubs. And so, you can, I think, get up to $1,500 to have a speaker come in and talk to your club. And then, they'll fund travel if you want to go to a conference or get training. It's a really great thing on campus. Could you share what your plans are, the club next year, and if someone was interested in becoming a college ambassador, what they might do?

Madi Heater:

Yeah. We're working on that process right now, getting ready to transition for next year. The best way to get involved, first off, is just joining the club, specifically on Engage. That's where we post all of our events. So, if you ever just want to see what we're doing, what we have done, Engage is the best place to check.

Nick Perkins:

And it's free to join, there's no club dues.

Madi Heater:

Yeah. Our club is completely free, and that's a big part of our club, is providing outdoor recreation opportunities at low to no cost so everyone can get involved. But for the actual college ambassador, we have to go through an application process with the National Park Trust.

Joy James:

And who is the National Park Trust? We've been talking about it, but I haven't addressed what that is. So, what's the National Park Trust?

Madi Heater:

They are a stewardship foundation that was originally formed to buy land around national parks and then donate it to the national parks. But since then, they've expanded their operations a lot and mostly focus on recreation and stewardship opportunities. And the college ambassador program is one of their newest opportunities. I think we're going into our third year now of it. It's specifically for college students and getting them outdoors. And so, that's what we are here for. We get funding from the National Park Trust in order to provide events on campus for students so they can get outdoors without having to pay for it.

Joy James:

Okay. And that's how you're able to offer no dues for them?

Madi Heater:

Yes, exactly.

Joy James:

That's really incredible, because most people, to join a club, you have to pay at least five bucks a semester. If they wanted to become an ambassador at their local community college or college, they would go to the National Park Trust website, which we'll put on our show notes.

Madi Heater:

Yeah.

Joy James:

And what was the application process?

Madi Heater:

You pick two people that you want to represent your college or university. It's pretty much you come up with an idea of what events you would want to see on your campus and how you would make them happen. And based on that planning process is how they pick their ambassadors just to see if you could realistically have these events and if it's what they're looking for. But it's a super easy application. It's really new, so it's really easy. This is the time to get involved now.

Joy James:

When I first saw it too, I saw that they were advertising and promoting the different colleges. So you're up there as a partner, as a university, with National Park Trust. This is another perk for your university that you might be at, that you have this engagement and representation. I mean, the basic part for me is that my students are out there getting to have access to the natural areas, but it's also sometimes nice to have a...

Madi Heater:

Larger impact.

Joy James:

Yeah. Larger impact. That's a great way of putting it. So, what has been your favorite thing about being a college ambassador at App State?

Nick Perkins:

Definitely the opportunities that we get through the National Park Trust. Like Worley's Cave, making that so affordable for everybody. That was super, super cool. I've never gone caving before, and that was definitely the peak of what we did. It was just a whole lot of fun.

Joy James:

Did y'all work with outdoor programs? Or did you just find somebody or you knew something about Worley's Cave? How'd you organize that?

Madi Heater:

In the GES department, or the Geological and Environmental Science department, one of our professors actually is a co-owner of a outdoor adventure company that runs trips in Worley's Cave.

Joy James:

That's awesome.

Madi Heater:

So, we were able to make the connection through the professor in order to get us a discount and make it more manageable. But her company, Earth and Water Adventures, helped us to guide us through the cave.

Joy James:

I'll make sure to put that on our show notes as well. I'll get that from you so that other students could do that. That ends the segment here in terms of talking about y'all's ambassadors. Was there anything I should have asked that I didn't, that you want to share?

Madi Heater:

I was just going to make a quick comment on the last question you asked. I think it's been really cool to see the impacts on other people. I heard the story a few... It's been a few weeks now. But one of my friends from the camp that I used to work at, I invited her out to our very first event, which was the stewardship event, cleaning up the trail. She didn't come with any friends, she only knew me there. And at that event, she met her best friend and now they live together. And now, her best friend is also coming to work at the summer camp where we had originally met a long time ago.

Joy James:

That's awesome.

Madi Heater:

So, just getting to hear those personal impact stories and how getting to come to one of our events is how they met and started this whole separate adventure. So, just getting to hear that has been really incredible.

Joy James:

Thank you for sharing that.

Madi Heater:

Yeah.

Joy James:

That's wonderful. We're going to come back and get a little bit of dirt on getting outside.

Becki Battista:

Madi and Nick's roles as National Park Ambassadors have been an incredible experience, not just for them but for others as well. The National Park Trust Ambassador Program focuses on encouraging college students to spend time outdoors, providing opportunities to connect with nature, and allowing students to join without any membership fees. It's amazing how students attending events hosted by the club has fostered such meaningful friendships along the way. Let's get back to the interview for our segment, getting the dirt, on Madi and Nick's experiences in the outdoors.

Joy James:

I always like this part of the podcast because I get to ask some interesting questions. Not that the other questions weren't interesting before, but this is really getting the dirt on helping others who might not be as comfortable in the outdoors, see what your experiences are. The first question is, what is your biggest fear in the outdoors?

Madi Heater:

I think my biggest fear in the outdoors is just, when I'm going camping, waking up to an animal outside my tent.

Joy James:

Has that happened?

Madi Heater:

I've definitely been camping before and heard coyotes outside of my tent. So yes, unfortunately. Luckily, they didn't come in, though.

Joy James:

That's what I'd be worried too.

Nick Perkins:

Yeah. My greatest fear is ticks. I hate ticks. I mean, there's also poison ivy, but at least you can identify poison ivy and try to avoid it. But ticks, they just find a way.

Joy James:

And they're all sizes. It's not even like... I have a body of freckles, so it's when the freckle moves that I realize I have a tick, if I even know that it's on there. So, you're right. That is a... And then, Lyme's disease.

Nick Perkins:

And that's the worst part. It's one thing that you got a little bug sucking on you.

Joy James:

And yet, you still go out.

Madi Heater:

Yeah.

Joy James:

Coyotes, bears. I woke up to a buffalo chomping on cud outside my tent in Roosevelt National Park.

Madi Heater:

Wow.

Joy James:

Yeah. That was a little daunting. Then I've also had a cow over at Doughton Park on the Blue Ridge Parkway. What is your most embarrassing outdoor moment? It doesn't have to be the most embarrassing, but what was an embarrassing moment?

Madi Heater:

I went on this canoe trip, this was a few years back now. And we were overnight camping on islands in the middle of Lake Jocassee. It's a lake in South Carolina. We were out camping on Lake Jocassee in some of the islands in the middle of it. And I don't know what I had for breakfast that morning, but we were in the middle of the lake and I have never paddled so fast in my life to make it back to an island. And I think I ran through a ton of bramble patches. Luckily, we made it, but that was a rough morning.

Joy James:

Yeah, I've been there. How about you, Nick?

Nick Perkins:

All right. I'm going to tell this story, and you cut it out. I went hiking, and it was a good five, six mile hiking trip. And I wore these pants that were way too hot and it was a hot day. And I got this huge sweat stain and I just had to live with that the whole hike with all my friends, and they just kept commenting on the butt stain. That was pretty embarrassing. That's what came to mind.

Joy James:

Totally. And we ask the embarrassing question and your biggest fear question because sometimes those things cause apprehension and anxiety to not wanting to go outside. So, to hear people who are avid outdoor people talk about these, I mean, very human experiences, going to the bathroom, sweating, and then your friends kind of joshing you, harassing you a little bit.

Nick Perkins:

In their shorts.

Joy James:

Yeah. And then, just the discomfort of it all. But yet, y'all still prevail. I mean, we still go outside despite some of these challenges that we face. That's one of the reasons we love to ask these questions, is to showcase that, hey, everybody's human. And it's still worthwhile to get outside.

Madi Heater:

For sure.

Joy James:

All right. Two more questions. What is a must have piece of outdoor gear or equipment that you never leave without? You couldn't live without it in the outdoors.

Madi Heater:

I always have a backup pair of socks. It's just wet socks are the worst, that's how you get blisters. So, I just always have a backup pair of socks on me.

Joy James:

Wool or cotton.

Madi Heater:

Wool. Cotton kills. Do not wear cotton outdoors.

Joy James:

Right.

Nick Perkins:

Probably a knife.

Joy James:

Knife. Pocket knife? Big knife?

Nick Perkins:

Just a practical knife.

Joy James:

You mean about five, six inches?

Nick Perkins:

Mm-hmm.

Joy James:

And is it one that flips out or...

Nick Perkins:

A fixed blade.

Joy James:

Fixed blade. Thank you. I don't even know what I'm talking about.

Nick Perkins:

Well, I guess I have different knives for different things.

Joy James:

So, it depends on the thing that you're doing.

Nick Perkins:

But I always try to have a knife on me because I don't want to be caught without one.

Joy James:

Yeah. No, I understand. I grew up with my dad carrying pocket knives and I have knives all over the place. Yeah. My dad first gave me one of those... What'd you say? A fixed blade? And it looked like I was Crocodile Dundee back in the 80s. I'm like, "What am I going to do with this, dad?" He's like, "You never know."

Madi Heater:

Yeah. The true test is, do you have a knife on you right now?

Joy James:

Yeah.

Nick Perkins:

No, I don't.

Joy James:

Well, in the university. Our producer, David's showing us his knife. Have you heard of the knuckle buster knives? The Leatherman... You open up and... My dad called them knuckle busters because you're constantly thinking you can use it for a tool, and it doesn't work as well as your other knives.

Madi Heater:

Yeah.

Joy James:

All right. Last question is, what is your favorite local spot here in Boone or the high country area?

Madi Heater:

I think this isn't super, super local, but Grayson Highlands. It's right across the border in Virginia. It's only an hour from Boone, but that has to be one of my favorite spots. Just go see the wild ponies, go backpacking. It's such an incredible place.

Joy James:

It's beautiful.

Nick Perkins:

My favorite would have to be the Nature Preserve. I mean, Grayson Highlands is a lot cooler, but I spent so much time in the Nature Preserve, especially [inaudible 00:27:16]. It's over by the Greenwood Lot. And yeah, especially when I was living on campus and whenever I needed a break, whenever I needed to get out, just go to the Nature Preserve and walk around. And I really appreciate having that here, because I don't think that's a common thing for a lot of schools.

Joy James:

Well, it's funny you mention this. I was talking to Dr. Wayne Williams, a professor emeritus of Rec Management. And for one of his classes, he would always take students out to the Nature Preserve. And I was mentioning it, and I'm ashamed to say I've never been to the Nature Preserve, so I need to get out there because, right now, apparently the wildflowers are blooming. So, it's a really cool spot. And I'm assuming when you went out there, not a lot of other students were out there, which is what made it nice.

Nick Perkins:

It depends on the day. But I would say, yeah, I don't think as many students really take advantage of it. But you'll, of course, see people out there. And you'll see non-students out there too, especially on weekends since you could park.

Joy James:

I want to thank both of you, Madi and Nick, again for your service as College Ambassadors for National Park Trust. Next year, y'all will both be here running the club, or is there someone else taking over the club?

Madi Heater:

I'll still be running it. Nick's going to help to pick the new ambassador, but we have a few upcoming seniors that are interested that'll be working with me to run the club next year. And we're always looking for student input on what you want to see us do. So if you want to reach out, check us out on Engage, my information's on Engage.

Joy James:

Okay. Awesome. Well, thank you both for your time today. We really appreciate it.

Nick Perkins:

Thank you.

Joy James:

And that's a wrap.

Becki Battista:

Wow. Being a park ambassador sounds like such an exciting and rewarding experience. Congratulations to Madi and Nick for becoming the first park ambassadors on our campus. I encourage any student listening to Explore This Club or visit the National Park Trust to learn more about our amazing national parks. As we wrap up this episode, don't forget to check out the notes page for resources on the National Park Trust and App State's National Park Trust Club. We extend our heartfelt gratitude to Madi and Nick for sharing their invaluable insights and stories with us.

The Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast is the brainchild of Melissa Weddle, Becki Batiste and Joy James. Special thanks to our dedicated podcast producer, Dave Blanks, from App State University Communications, for his exceptional work behind the scenes. We leave you with the falling quote from Michael From, "A national park is not a playground, it's a sanctuary for nature and for humans who will accept nature on nature's own terms."

On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity podcast, host Dr. Joy James interviews Subaru Leave No Trace (LNT) traveling team members Haley Toy and Gary Huey. The couple shares their personal journeys into outdoor recreation, how they became passionate about the outdoors through a college experience in Yosemite, and their current work educating people on minimizing environmental impact through the LNT principles. They discuss their favorite outdoor activities, challenges, and the importance of balancing personal and professional life while working full-time together. They emphasize that Leave No Trace isn’t about perfection but about being mindful of the environment and learning through experience.

Notes

Haley Toy (she/her) and Gary Huey (he/him)

Subaru/Leave No Trace Traveling Team

www.LNT.org

PO Box 997 | Boulder, CO 80306

[email protected]

LNT Instagram handle: @leavenotraceorg

Brendan Leonard Climbs 7 Summits … Of His Neighborhood

www.LNT.org

Subaru/Leave No Trace Traveling Teams

Kula Cloth

TRANSCRIPT

Becki 

Welcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity, where we encourage you to get outside and keep going outside. Here we will share Appalachian State stories that entertain, inspire, and inform listeners about living an active outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story. The goal to get you outside and keep you going outside to improve your overall wellness. This podcast is presented by The Hope Lab, where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise and play on the health, environment and human development. The vision of the Hope lab is to continue developing the foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out at hopelab.appstate.edu. Hi, my name is Becki Battista. I am a professor of exercise science at Appalachian State University and a self-proclaimed outdoor physical activity addict. I'm your host for today's episode of the Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast. In today's episode, Dr. Joy James, a professor in recreation management, sits down with Subaru Leave No Trace traveling team members Hayley Toy and Gary Huey. Together, they delve into the core principles of Leave No Trace, reflecting on their experiences as part of the Subaru LNT traveling team and sharing insights from their own outdoor adventures. 

Joy 

So, welcome to Outdoorosity. I have here Leave No Trace Team Hayley and Gary, who have generously agreed to give some of their time to tell us a little bit about how they came to the outdoor space, as well as a little bit about Leave No Trace. So welcome, and thank you for being a part of this. 

Gary 

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having us. 

Haley  

Thank you. 

Joy 

All right. So what I'm going to do first is have you introduce yourselves kind of where you're from, and then tell us what your favorite outdoor activity is. 

Haley  

I can start. My name is Hayley, and I grew up in the Seattle area in Washington state. And my favorite outdoor activity right now, it's a toss up between hiking and just sitting outside in the sun and reading a good book. 

Joy 

I like how you said right now. It changes, doesn't it? 

Gary 

It does. It really does.  

 And I'm Gary and I'm from Northern California, and my favorite outdoor activity would be fishing right now. So I enjoy it. 

Joy 

Line fishing or fly fishing? 

Gary 

A little bit of both. A little bit of everything. I get out there and catch fish. I enjoy it all. 

Joy 

Awesome. All right. So I'm going to ask questions and as we've been doing kind of alternate back and forth. My first question for you is how did you first get interested in the outdoors? 

Haley  

For me, I actually had the privilege to grow up kind of being exposed to outdoor recreation specifically like national parks. So I grew up every summer. My parents were generous enough to take us, like on multiple weeklong road trips. And every summer it was like a whole list of different national parks. So that was kind of my first exposure to the outdoors. And because it came at such a young age, I think those ideas were always kind of instilled in me, whether I realized it or not. But yeah, so I guess from an early age, I had the benefit of just getting to see how much stuff there is to do outside. 

Gary 

And for myself, I grew up not really doing too much outside, and I played more like traditional sports, like basketball outside. But it wasn't until college where they had a semester right outside of Yosemite called High Sierra, where you spend a whole semester outside, and there's professors out. It was at like a summer camp campus. But there are the professors there and we had a cohort of like 30 to 50 other students. Through that immersive experience. I felt like I discovered a whole other world in the outdoors. And so it was a little later for me. 

Haley  

And that's also how we met. 

Gary 

And that's how we met as well. We met that semester. Exactly. I know. 

Haley  

So, lots of positive outcomes. 

Joy 

That's what I love about outdoors and recreation is that it connects people, and it is an opportunity to discover oneself as well. So I love that you explained about that immersive experience. I think a lot of people actually are comfortable in outdoor settings through sports, and they don't know about some of this other stuff that's going on, or they just think we're weird because we camp, you know, like, why would you do that? No shower. It's not until you have the experience that you're able to feel comfortable and then connect with others. So that's really cool. So my next question is what are your favorite outdoor activities? We kind of hit that at the beginning, but what are some more that you enjoy doing when you're able? 

Gary 

Specifically together, we have gone backpacking a bunch. We go car camping, but I feel like a goal we've had within the past only maybe 3 to 4, maybe five years, is that we’ve tried to climb like a bigger mountain or like a little goal every year. And so we've done a few of those together and usually they're overnighters. If not, you know, 1 or 2 nights. 

Joy 

Multi pitch type climbing or just climbing a mountain? 

Gary 

More so yeah, just hiking mountains. So we climbed like Mount Saint Helens and Whitney and we did the cables on Half Dome...last year maybe. And so that was really fun. 

Haley  

Only once a year so far. 

Gary 

Only once...I know. It takes some planning. 

Joy 

Was that inspired from this immersive experience that you had or just something you said, oh, we want to climb these mountains? 

Gary 

You know, it was...What do you think? 

Haley  

It was him. 

Gary 

I think the making of the push was I'd have these different photo books of different outdoor photographers, and I'd see all their photos, and I was like, oh, that looks really cool to do. And when you look at an image and you try to do a similar experience, you realize how much planning there is. And so once we saw that, we were like, okay, one a year would be a good goal. And so I don't know. That's where it kind of came. 

Haley  

It just became that. 

Gary 

Yeah, it kind of became that. 

Joy 

I just watched something where a man from Missoula, Montana did the Seven Summits...that he could see from his dog walk. 

Gary 

Oh, wow. Oh. 

Joy 

I thought that was pretty...And what he was doing, he said, you know, I don't have $140,000 to go do the Seven Summits around the world. So I'm going to make my own plan. He goes, I walk my dog all the time. And then he showed the different ways he was biking. So it was really interesting. I'll send you the link and I'll include the link in for our listeners, but I, I love how you're like, it's a goal and we do it once a year because of the amount of planning. But I think a lot of our other skills kind of lend itself towards your success, whether you actually make the climb or not. Right? Like the weather might impede or do other things for us. Since you two have different stories about how you came to the outdoors, how do you think you became comfortable in the outdoors? Like it's not always easy to go to the bathroom in the outdoors, not have a shower, be sweaty, be stinky. So how did you get comfortable in the outdoors? 

 Haley  

Not to keep like pumping up this experience that we had during our semester in college in the Sierras, but for me, that really was how I became comfortable in the outdoors. Part of that semester experience. Is that you...I don't want to say you're forced, but you are required to...I felt like I was forced at the time...to go on a backpacking trip in the backcountry of Yosemite, and one of them was in the dead of winter. So it was like late January, maybe early February. That was my very first backpacking trip. And I can't even describe to you how terrified I was. Gary knows because I still talk about it all the time. And everyone also at the time knew. I mean, that was like the one hindrance for me and why I almost didn't participate in that semester program. he morning of we were supposed to leave and I just, I guess, physically made myself sick, like, I, I don't know how my body did it, but I gave myself like, a fever and all of its other symptoms because of out of fear, just because it was so unlike anything that I had ever experienced or thought that I was capable of. Because I had grown up very front country focus, outdoor experiences. We weren't camping out in the backcountry or anything like that. So this was totally new. But getting thrown into it and not really having a choice made me realize that I could do it. And there were a lot of other people like me who that was their first time. You know, for some reason, in my mind, I felt like I was the only person who wouldn't know what they were doing. But we were all really in the same boat, including Gary. 

Gary 

It was my first time camping.. 

Joy 

I was going to say, it wasn’t even car camping. You were backpacking 40lbs! Crazy! 

Haley  

In the snow. Yes. It's very. Yeah. Now that we look back and it's like, oh that wasn't really like an easy way to ease into it, but it threw us in. We both fell in love with it. That was the first time in my life that I really felt the feeling of overcoming something difficult or scary for me, and it's a really addicting feeling. So I think that's carried over to like these mountains that we have tried to hike to the top of. It's carried over to like adopting new hobbies and stuff like that. But I try to chase that feeling that I first felt. 

Joy 

Yeah. Gary, for you? 

Gary 

Yeah. For myself. How did I become comfortable? I'd say just from going outside so much or spending more time outside, even when I didn't necessarily know what I was maybe doing or if I was doing things, you know, the quote unquote best way, I guess. I remember, like, I think a year after we met, you took me on a road trip to a few national parks. I'd never been on a road trip. I had just, you know, from that semester, learned how to camp. And so I was like, sure, that sounds fun. And I didn't know necessarily what to pack or what to bring, but I just brought whatever I had in college and I think after that road trip, it really was the proof of just, you know, getting out there and bringing whatever you have and making it work. And the more I did it, I felt like the more I kind of knew from the past experience, oh, like, I have this or I liked that, that I had that. And so just doing it a bunch, I feel like, helped me get familiar. 

Joy 

Gary, you mentioned you'd played sports and were comfortable outside. Haley, you talked about going to parks and just kind of hanging. I'm going to be specific with you, Haley. Just because women have a different experience in some, in some cases not to ostracize you in any way, Gary. So, did you play sports? Did you have any reason to be outside in your home that would have made you comfortable or friends or like, or is it just really the parks, going on, the road trips that kind of piqued your interest? 

Haley  

Yeah, it was really probably these trips that piqued my interest. I did not grow up playing any sports or doing any hobbies outside. totally different. I grew up in dance and musical theater. 

Joy 

Yeah. So. And that's fine. So the research shows particularly that it's harder for women sometimes to get involved in the outdoors because of, you know, again, bathroom, shower or animals, insects, weather. And when women and men, or boys and girls play sports, they're kind of used to being uncomfortable and sweaty. And as you are too, as a dancer or in theater, you know, but it was just a different sort of challenge. And so it was wonderful, Gary, to hear you say, hey, just getting out there and doing it, trying it, failing forward, making mistakes. and now I'm sure as Leave No Trace trainers, you have a lot of expertise that you didn't have or you didn't start with. And I think sometimes people get intimidated because it's just too much and yet they don't want to make a mistake. So it's just interesting that you said, hey, the more you do it, the more comfortable you'll become. So this may kind of add on or you may have another story here. but I'm looking for a story that you might have that has influenced you. It could be a funny story. Ha, ha. Like I did this, or it could be something that you learned a lesson, and it's changed how you've done things in your life or in the outdoors. Do either of you have some stories that you would be willing to share with our listeners? 

Haley  

I could think of like a bunch of 'em, but, I'll share one that comes to mind. He might have the same story too, but fishing has become one of our favorite things to do outside. And I guess kind of the inverse of like the time that we had spent outside. Gary, actually, you did spend time outside because he had spent time fishing a little bit as a kid, but I had never had that experience, and I have always wanted to. I've always been really interested in it and just, I don't know, never was in the right place at the right time to have someone teach me and have all the stuff and the ideal conditions and things like that. But through this job, I think one of the best positive experiences of this job is the people that we have been able to build relationships with in all different parts of the country and all different walks of life. We've made a lot of really amazing friends through this experience, and one of those friends was someone that was able to expose us to fishing, or my first time fishing, which was in Grand Teton National Park. 

Joy 

Wow, what a place to start! 

Haley  

I know. We were spoiled. I know. He worked at one of the lodges inside of the park, and we had done some work with him through Leave No Trace, became friends and he was generous enough to take us out on a boat, you know, with the picturesque Tetons in the background. And, just him and his friends were able to teach me at least all the basics. And that feeling of catching your first fish, similar to, you know, going backpacking for the first time. But it was just really empowering and it was just something that I, I don't. It's not common for me that I know nothing about something, but want to learn everything about it. And fishing was that thing for me. And so I got really excited to learn more about it since then, and we have not stopped. 

Joy 

Do you have a bunch of gear now? 

Haley  

Yes, too much. 

Gary 

Too much gear. Side note though, we were on that boat with, I think one of his friends was like a fishing guide, and so he knew exactly where to go and what lures to use. And we were catching fish, like, pretty, pretty frequently. And I told Haley, like, this is not like normal fishing where you have to wait a long time. And we went out a few days later to go fishing and fishing out there was just so good. I said, this is not this is not normal. And so that definitely has a special I learned within our own. Yeah, that was a special, special experience for sure. 

Joy 

Well and Gary has such a good point. Like sometimes when you start something new you want some successes and then there's some reality like, Haley might not have been hooked if she hadn't caught a fish where she was like oh this is cool. 

Haley  

I don’t think I would have. 

Joy 

Yeah. So that's the other thing, too. When I think about how to prime activities for people who are new is like, how can I help them find that little bit of success? Like, I remember backpacking with my nephew and he was 12 and he couldn't believe he made it to the top of the mountain with the backpack on. And we were eating lunch and it was like nothing like what you're doing out the Tetons. It was this little trail up the Pisgah National Forest, and that was such a success for him that he didn't know, like you said, about backpacking, you didn't know you could do it until you did it. 

Haley  

Exactly. Yeah. That's awesome. 

Joy 

How about you, Gary? Any story you're willing to share that's influenced you or. Funny. 

Gary 

Yeah. So in general I'm a very go with the flow kind of person. And so when we're on those road trips I'll just go with the flow and like have to have don't have what I don't have. But one of our trips we went backpacking and we had to canoe to the campsite. 

Haley  

I knew this is what you... 

Gary 

Haha Okay. Good. And, you know, I guess it was just from pure lack of experience though. I was like, Okay, like, this is gonna be great. We're going to go backpacking and be on the lake and whatnot. But then what we didn't realize is that we didn't plan to have, like, a water filter, and there's no place to get water other than filtering your own water. And we brought one kind of meal. And then midway through, Haley was like, we're not gonna have enough water to get back. And I said, no, like, we should be fine. And, quickly to realize we probably weren't gonna have enough water to get back. And it all turned out fine because we ran into some people who lent us their water filter, which is super kind of them. But all that to say, when we got back, I think that's when I learned the importance of planning ahead and kind of like mapping out what you might need. And I feel like if it wasn't for that experience, I probably would have been more go with the flow and probably would have gotten in, you know, worse scenarios. And so that's one I always will cherish. 

Joy 

That's such an important piece, right? Like it's an experience you have to have to inform how you are now. And I will tell you, I still do dumb things, but I'm always like, I hope nobody sees me doing this. I'm a professor and I should know better than to do this. And so I think sometimes as you get more expertise, you become a little more, maybe complacent, or you're like, oh, I can get away with it. And I've done stuff like that. Even having been doing it for 20 or 30 years. So, the thing that I love about your story too, is the sharing of the community, how you've met some people, told them your situation, and they were willing to help you out. And that's what I found myself. It's the wonderful community of people. And thankfully, you were able to find somebody and then make it home. 

Gary 

They were too nice. 

Haley  

They even fed us too! They were way more prepared than us. 

Becki 

Isn't it fascinating how Haley and Gary discuss how immersing themselves in a semester outdoors at Yosemite National Park helped them grow comfortable with nature. They emphasize that simply getting outside and engaging with the environment aids and developing that comfort. Furthermore, they highlight how their work with LNT has facilitated connections with fellow outdoor enthusiasts who are eager to share new experiences, such as fishing. Today's episode is proudly sponsored by the Hope lab. At the Hope lab, we're committed to finding creative ways to promote outdoor activity. Visit appstate.hopelab.edu to explore the myriad of benefits of spending time outdoors. Let's return to the interview to delve deeper into their roles as part of the Subaru LNT traveling teams. 

Joy 

I wanted to kind of move into your job and what you're doing. I mentioned that you were the Leave No Trace Subaru Team. Is that the title to call you? 

Gary 

Yeah. 

Joy 

And if you could kind of share what Leave No Trace is and what your job is, we'd appreciate it. 

Haley  

Sure. Well, Leave No Trace is actually. Well, the name of it actually comes from an organization which a lot of people don't realize. You know, I think many of us, including us, like when we went on our first backpacking trip, we were taught the concept of Leave No Trace. But we never knew that it actually, you know, the curriculum was being written and put out there by an organization. So that is the organization that we now work for. And essentially our mission is just to get information and education out there and providing resources for people to understand how to minimize their impact when it comes to outdoor recreation specifically. So as one of the Subaru Leave No Trace teams, we really are the people who are like in motion doing that, living it out every single day for the past three years. And, so a lot of what our job looks like is a combination of teaching formal workshops and Leave No Trace trainings for land managers for a student like AmeriCorps, type of youth Conservation corps, university students, even high school, elementary school, and all age students. We also could be setting up a booth and just doing outreach on a more casual level at festivals and events. We just over the past weekend came from PCT days in Oregon for the Pacific Crest Trail thru hikers or other hikers. And, so events like that sometimes will go to festivals and other things and just try to talk to people about what Leave No Trace means to them. 

Gary 

So a lot. 

Haley  

Yeah, yeah a lot. 

Joy 

Are you crisscrossing the country or do you have an area that you focus in? 

Haley  

Pretty crisscross. 

Gary 

Yeah. I think it depends on the year. Like I feel like our first few years...more locational. We wouldn't cross too much. But this past year we crossed a lot. We were in Vermont and Florida, and now we’re in the Pacific Northwest. 

Haley  

It just depends. But we could be anywhere at any time. We're not limited to a region or anything like that. 

Gary 

Yeah. 

Joy 

Okay. Do you plan it or does the Leave No Trace organization say, here are the things that we need you to go. Like, how is that being planned for you? Or are you planning? 

Gary 

Leave No Trace kind of has a calendar of events and places we need to be and when we need to be there. 

Haley  

Which is very nice because there's a lot of... 

Gary 

Very nice. 

Haley  

...logistics behind the scenes that our manager thank goodness for her. She does a lot of that back end work. 

Gary 

Yeah. 

Joy 

Yeah. And is three years an average or does usually people work one year and they're gone. What does that look like for the organization? 

Haley  

It's a mix I think it ranges. So when you first get offered the position, it's a one year contract. And from there you know you can choose, between the two of you, you can choose to continue on or not. And so we just have continued on. 

Gary 

I feel like a lot of people though, do it for, you either do it for one year or you do it for like 3 or 4 years. I think the longest someone's ever done it, I think, is seven years. I want to say that that was the longest, but... 

Haley  

Which I don’t think we'll get to. 

Gary 

Yeah. 

Joy 

I just assumed it was a one year gig and... 

Haley  

So a lot of people will do it right after graduating and or, you know, during a transition in career or something like that. Which is awesome that people can get that experience. And then others, I think, use it, as a, as a stepping stone or a foundation for their career in the outdoor industry. Which is kind of more where we ended up going. 

Gary 

Yeah. 

Joy 

Oh no. That's, I'm, I'm glad to hear that. Well the next thing I wanted to know was how like, so it sounds like you were introduced to Leave No Trace on that backpacking trip that was kind of foundational. So how did you become interested in wanting to teach and train people about it? What's the story behind your story? 

Gary 

Yeah, I feel like after that whole experience and learning that Leave No Trace, I feel like it was mostly from wanting to continue being in the outdoor industry. And we saw that this specific year that we saw the position they had, they're emphasizing a kind of digital education as well. And so I have a background in photography. Hayley has a background in graphic design. And, we've always wanted to work in the outdoor industry. We thought that our skills would, you know, mesh well together for the different kind of education of also seeing things online and videos. And so we thought that our skill set personally would be effective there. But being able to mesh that in with our like, personal interests that had become and rooted from that experience, it was kind of like, a perfect fit or like a dream come true in some way of being able to have that opportunity. And so, yeah, we're super lucky. 

Haley  

Weren’t Expecting it. 

Gary 

Yeah, we weren't expecting it. We didn't know about it. 

Joy 

Well, how did you find out about it? Was it a professor or did you see the job come across? Like, how does one find out about this? 

Gary 

It was so random. We were doing our own gigs, but we saw it on a Facebook group called Base Camp Outdoors, where they post a lot of outdoor opportunities. And so we it just was on our Facebook feed, and we saw it there, and I texted it over to Haley saying, we should, we should, we should apply for this. And she was like, yeah, sure. And I was like, No. Really we should try! 

Haley  

We should try but I don't think we're going to get it. 

Gary 

Yeah. Sounded like one of those positions where everyone probably applies and you never hear back, but they look at everyone's applications and yeah, the rest is history after that I guess. 

Joy 

Haley, this sounds like a perfect gig for you having road trips all your life. And then as y'all were together learning road trips for Gary, and now you're on the permanent road trip right now. 

Haley  

Totally. I know it's been...we've been really, really fortunate. And it was always a pipe dream, at least for me. And I never really...I was scared to tell anyone, you know, that something I would always want to do is like, spend some time on the road, cross country, ideally with a partner or, you know, someone that I feel comfortable being with 24 seven. But I just never even fathomed that that would be a reality. Especially as a career or, you know, so it was definitely a dream come true. 

Joy 

Well that's just I've, I've known about this again for years and just always been like, wow, this is such a cool thing for like you said, young people or people in transition from careers. So, I know that people are going to want to know what the skinny is or what it's like working on the Subaru team? Y'all are partners. You're together 24/7. What are things you wish you'd known, and what advice would you give to somebody who maybe wanting to do this and with their partner? 

Haley  

That's a great question. 

Gary 

Good question. Yeah. 

Haley  

People don’t ask that enough. 

Gary 

Yeah. 

Joy 

I know I’m making you think too. 

Gary 

Yeah. 

Haley  

Well, I think something that we learned very early on was the importance of separating our working relationship and our personal relationship, which is very difficult and still an ongoing process multiple years later. But I think we just learned because this was our experience...you know, we had been in a relationship together for several years before this. So we felt like we knew each other very well. But working together and not just working, you know, at the same company, but like under the same title, you share an email, you're doing absolutely everything together. That was a whole new learning experience. And seeing each other's like, working tendencies and just even personality over, like, communication with other people in a professional sense. We're just different, different people who work differently. And so that was a little bit of a challenge to try and put that, hone all of that in and, and make it effective as a unit. That being said, just trying...It took us a long time, but just trying to figure out as best we can to still find time to be Haley and Gary, the individual people versus Haley, Gary, the Subaru Leave No Trace Team. And so we, I guess like how that manifested is just us trying to find time as much as we can to just separate ourselves from the work, because you just have to because I think this is a job that if you're not mindful, you could...The work life balance could very quickly diminish. And I think Leave No Trace is very... and all of our managers and things like that, They’re very mindful and encouraging us to have a work life balance, which is great. But just the reality, you know, this job is very all consuming. So, very immersive. So having to be intentional for time together, but also alone time. 

Gary 

Yeah. Yeah. You don't really think about when you're together having a alone time on the road as well. 

Haley  

You need it. 

Gary 

So finding your own hobby of what can you do, you know, for this part of the day right there. But doing it separate like doing separate things and so. 

Haley  

Or just driving. Yeah. Like long long car days and just saying okay, we're not going to talk to each other for the next four hours and we're just going to do our own thing. 

Gary 

But you need that because in real life, I feel like you never are always with somebody, you know, no matter where you go and what you do. And so trying to add that bit of normalcy of life and independence, I guess, or individuality, not independence. 

Haley  

Yes, but there are like, I feel like we're not to put a damper on all of it. There are a lot of positives to working with your partner in this sense. And we've been reflecting on this a lot lately, you know, just as it's been a few years now of doing it. But to be able to share all of these experiences with someone, or to have to do it by yourself could be a very isolating experience. And so the fact that our lives are like, so intertwined and, you know, we could just say something about any part of our life. And the other person just knows the full context of that. 

Joy 

Yeah. 

Haley  

It’s really special and rare. And we're learning to appreciate that too. 

Gary 

Yeah. 

Joy 

Yeah. Well, I appreciate your candor. I think it's, you know, obviously you're communicating very well and you and sometimes it would pay for everyone to be together for 24 hours because we treat each other a little differently than when we get separated. At the same time, to be able to be in the same space and say, I'm not going to talk to you is it's it's not being rude. It's giving people their, their, their opportunities to decompress and be who they are. I think too the identity is important. Like I'm Joy, I could be a partner. I could be a mother, I could be a friend. There's all these different identities at play and you all have merged identities. And that separation is so important. 

Haley  

Yes. 

Joy 

You bring that up. Well. 

Haley  

People combine our names into one all the time. They mix them up. Yeah. 

Joy 

Yeah. Well, it was funny. Your emails, Haley and Gary. And I was like, well, I think she's speaking for both of them, but I didn't, you know, it's just interesting, right? Because you kind of are manifested as one team, which it's. Yeah, it's a good thing. And, I, I'm always interested how people can be together, like you’re being together and we when we’re outdoors on backpacking trips, you know, that’s a 24/7 thing but you still can manage to get outside of it. Whereas when you’re in a car, you don’t have that. And if you’re mad at each other. 

Gary 

Yeah. 

Joy 

It's a whole nother, thing to work through. So. But we all go down that path. I just was curious. Because I think if I saw the job description, you have to when you apply, you apply as a pair, right? It could be two friends. It could be a couple. It's just you have to be ready to be together. Is that kind of the process? 

Gary 

Yeah. 

Haley  

Yeah for sure. And they I think they really look out for you know, they really want to see your dynamic between the two of you. And you don't necessarily have to be in a romantic relationship or a partnership or anything like that. You just have to know that you are consenting to spending 24/7 with that person. I remember one of our interview questions, which was really interesting question. They asked us to describe the other person’s strengths and weaknesses. 

Gary 

Yeah. 

Haley  

So, that was unique and was, you know, speaks to either wow well or well we knew each other. 

Joy 

All right. Well, this is an opportunity, this next segment for you to share what you think, the top Leave No Trace tips are. Now I know, leave no trace. Wonderful. There's all kinds. There's front country. There's backcountry. But let's imagine that our audience is kind of new to this idea of Leave No Trace. I know there's the principals. Is there something like, if we had to hit something home, what would be the top two things you'd want to say about Leave No Trace for the listeners to know or what's the education moment that you would want to give on this podcast to help people better understand, Leave No Trace and be able to practice it? 

Gary 

That’s a great question. 

Joy 

As yall are thinking, what I can say to the audience is, we'll put the Leave No Trace website up and as I mentioned before, there's this I think it's still seven principles. Yes. And it applies to the front country or the backcountry. And that was a new concept to me about ten years ago. I was like, oh my gosh, that's awesome. 

Haley  

I've got one that maybe is going to become two. I think that we, you know, we interact with and meet people every single day and talk about Leave No Trace with people, every single day. And so a lot of times we have experienced people, just being a little bit stressed or anxious about the idea of Leave No Trace and just the idea behind these seven principles. You'll see it, whether it's a land management agency listing out the principles on a sign or in a brochure or you see it online or something like that. And I think it has the potential to be daunting or like an information overload, even especially for someone who is maybe doing something specific for the first time or or they're just generally new to it. It is a lot of information, on a lot of different topics. And I think we just try to tell people, don't stress about it. And the goal, the goal isn't to feel like you have to be this perfect model of a Leave No Trace, you know, perfect angel. But it's really just understand the potential environmental impact that we could be making on natural spaces. And we always try to tell people, Leave No Trace. We're not trying to tell people, like, exactly how to live your life, but it's really just we want to be providing these resources and providing this framework so that when you go outside, you will be more informed in your decision making process, whether that's choosing to pick up your trash or pick up someone else's trash. 

Haley  

That's a very high level one. But, yeah, just trying to diminish the intimidation behind it, I guess, and let people know the information is there for you. And I think that's like, we want everyone to have the information, but we don't want anyone to be more intimidated by the outdoors because of Leave No Trace. 

Gary 

True. 

Joy 

That’s a great point. Even now I kind of like I judge myself. and so I hadn't thought about it from that perspective that, hey, this is not intended to make it more, more onerous to be outside. It really is just a resource. It's something it's a guideline. And if you can practice it as best you can, that's great. There's going to be times where you may not or you might forget and, that's that failing forward again. 

Haley  

Exactly, exactly. 

Gary 

Which I feel like is a big piece of Leave No Trace as well. Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say too. So I have to think of a tip, Haley.  

Joy 

That's another example of the two of you thinking like mind meld. 

Gary 

I think that actually happens. We can kind of know what the other person is going to say. 

Haley  

We just are one being sometimes. 

No, you go ahead. 

Gary 

No, I'm. I'm trying to think of what now because... 

Joy 

Well, okay. I'm going to do one for you. 

Haley  

Oh you do one! 

Joy 

What about when I have to go to the bathroom in the woods? What's the biggest tip I can know about that? 

Haley  

Good question. For solid waste. So for poop, the biggest thing, if you had to headline it and people had like .001 seconds to consume information, which sometimes they do is just when in doubt, pack it out. I guess, you know, to not have to worry about, can I dig a cat hole? Do I have the proper materials? How is the soil? If any of that is troublesome at all, it's best to just pack everything out, including your waste, including the toilet paper. yeah. That's always just, like, the safest, safest bet. 

Gary 

Yeah, so I was going to say, I know, to add on to what you're saying, as I said. Yeah, you have to look up the local regulations, but you're right. Like, if you don't have time or if you're in a place where you don't even know who manages the land, I think that that's a good overarching kind of idea to have in your head or rhyme. A little rhyme to have in your head is When in doubt. Pack it out. Because yeah, wherever you are, packing it out is a great option as well. And you know that's okay there. 

Haley  

So and same with trash or like food waste too. That's one of our most common questions is people have specific questions about organic food waste like orange peels or banana peels, apple cores. And I don't know, I think people spend a lot of time wondering if they can or can't. And to us it's like, well, if you have to spend that long thinking about whether it's going to harm the environment or not, probably just in that amount of time, you could just pack it out. 

Gary 

Yeah. 

Joy 

Yeah. So as you're talking, I remembered I had a Leave No Trace course probably about 20 years ago, it's out in the field and it was my first exposure to the idea of not having a campfire. Because I'd always gone camping, always had a campfire. I'd never thought about the consequences to the dirt or the soil or the organisms that lived in the soil. So, you know, the Leave No Trace person was bringing out their candle, and we had a little and I was like, that's not a campfire. I just totally resisted it. And I think initially, too, I totally resisted packing out human waste. because I didn't quite…again, this is probably the 90s, and I had grown up in a different, different way. And now it's not the same. But it was. I should remember being resistant a little bit to it. And now I have my students who show me how you can have your Nalgene bottle and put your half headlamp on it and get the glowy light. And that's, you know, the idea is to have community around the fire, the light. And, so that's how far I've come with Leave No Trace in 20 years is that I'm now like, oh, no fire, no problem. Oh, to pack it out. Yeah, I get it. No problem. But the initial adoption of it, I remember being a little. What? I'm sure you get that. Now if people are like what? 

Gary 

Totally. 

Haley  

Yes, that's awesome that you had that growing experience. 

Gary 

Were there any other things of Leave No Trace that were kind of surprising to you or, like you said, a little resistant to at first, but shifted over or not shifted over? 

Joy 

Really it was the campfire because, and I think you bring up a good point, Gary. I had an idea of what I thought camping or backpacking was. And I remember fondly sitting by a campfire. and it never occurred to me that I was doing damage. So, that kind of was an educational thing. More recently, you'll have my students who just roll their eyes because I talk about dog poop and how we need to be picking it up. And, that 20, 25 years ago was not something that was being done front country or backcountry. Trying to explain to people that, you know, there are these, you know, they're eating manufactured food that has different things, you know, the whole line.But I it it did take me a while because, you know, dogs like you said about organic Haley, you know, orange peels. Oh, we forget that there's pesticides or there's stuff on it that's being put into the natural environment. So it's been over the years that I’ve started to realize the why behind the pack it out. And you can't always get that why in the first meeting. But as you or at least I've found, as I've grown more interested and engaged in the outdoors, I understand the why and I'm more receptive to listening to it. 

Haley  

That’s a great testament to our goal, you know. 

You couldn't have said it better. Yeah. Just trying to get people, all of us, you know, even us. We're still constantly trying to understand the why behind certain things. But you're totally right in that once you do understand the why, that changes everything. 

Joy 

Yeah. 

Haley  

And that also just speaks to like when we see someone who is maybe doing something that, in our opinion, or maybe we wouldn't do, we like to give the benefit of the doubt and just think, you know, there's a lot of people who have not had the opportunity to learn the why, whether that's through the resources available to them or just the education opportunities. 

So try not to assume that people are purposefully harming the environment. And in most cases, we'd like to believe that they're not doing it. 

Gary 

Yes, but. 

Joy 

Haley, that's such another great point. Like, often people haven't had the same opportunities or they've had different. And I had never connected it with that's the why. Like knowing the why helps me to to implement to the best of my abilities. Some of the Leave No Trace. So great, great point. 

Becki 

Haley's insights into the challenges newcomers face with Leave No Trace resonates deeply. She underscores the value of doing your best and not allowing the fear of not perfectly adhering to the principles to hinder your enjoyment of the outdoors responsibly. Additionally, Joy's personal journey with LNT demonstrates how grasping the underlying reasons behind its principles can enhance your ability to put them into practice effectively. Let's get back to the interview for our segment, Getting the Dirt on Haley and Gary's experiences in the outdoors. 

Joy 

Well, I could talk to you all forever, and I know you've got other things you need to be doing. I have a few more questions, and what I'll do is sort of like a rapid fire thing, and we call it Getting the Dirt. Often we've interviewed people here who are local to App State. So if I ask you questions that are local, go ahead and pick somewhere where you want to be, because our listeners, we want to encourage people to get out in the Boone area. 

So if they kind of know about a location they can go to. Well, for you, we're going to say the sky's the limit and we might then aspire to get to where y'all have been. So the first question is, what is your biggest fear in the outdoors? 

Gary 

So I feel like I know your worst fear better than I know my own worst fear Yeah. Your worst fear is running out of food. 

Haley  

Oh yeah. 

Gary 

Yeah. That's your biggest. Well, mine is probably, like running out of gas because we drive in so many... 

Haley  

He’s very paranoid about it. 

Gary 

... areas where we don't see gas stations for, like, maybe 100 miles. 

Haley  

Fine. 

Joy 

If you all have half a tank and no food, there's a problem. 

Gary 

Oh, yeah. 

 Joy 

All right, so what is an embarrassing outdoor moment that you've had? 

Gary 

I know mine. 

Haley  

I know yours too. 

Gary 

Oh, do you know, mine? Well, we were, we had a program with the Access Fund. I have never said this story either, which is crazy how you know. So the Access Fund, help restore, like, trails to climbing areas or climbing crags and whatnot. And so the climbing stewards offered to take us climbing one day and we were like, oh, that's so awesome. Like, we have some climbing gear. Because we climb. We’ve gym climbed a lot and climbed some outdoors, but we wouldn't consider ourselves climbers right? We climb but we are not climbers. So we’re like, oh yeah. We'll go crack climbing in Indian Creek, and I put my harness on upside down. And that was one of the most embarrassing things because it had been in storage for a while, you know. I was the first one to go up and in front of all of these experts, I like I put my climbing harness upside down and they are like, oh, I think it's upside down. And I was just so mortified. 

Haley  

What's really sad about that is like, we had just spent the whole winter climbing pretty regularly in a gym. I feel like you definitely. 

Gary 

I know. I know how to tie my knots. I know how to climb. 

Haley  

It was out of anxiety I guess. 

Gary 

Maybe I was, yeah, a little shy in front of them. It was so embarrassing. 

Joy 

I feel that pain. That's something I would do. 

Haley  

I don't have any embarrassing stories. 

Gary 

You don’t have any?! 

Haley  

I mean, I think I can only think of when I am able to hook on to a fish. Like there's no specific moment, but when I hook on to a fish, because I'm still new to it, and I think it's just part of my personality, I tend to get a little loud. 

Gary 

Overreact a little. 

Haley  

I tend to scream a little bit, and sometimes I'm still working on being brave enough to pick up the fish and hold it. And so like sometimes if other people are there or if other people see from a distance, yeah. I just really freak out. I guess. 

Gary 

Yeah. 

Haley  

Oh, or when I have a bite, but I lose the fish. That's really embarrassing for me. 

Gary 

Yeah. 

Haley  

Sometimes if we’re fishing in really remote areas, I'm not great at practicing. principle number seven. “Be considerate of others.” 

Joy 

Well, those are perfect. So much happens to us in outdoor settings and yet the community still went out there and climbed. You still are out there fishing, and pushing through that embarrassment. I think it helps others to see that Oh, I'm human. I'm going to make mistakes or I'm going to have something happen. And then and Haley, you're talking about this. I'm a beginner. And so I, you know, I have other things that are going on like. I can tell you, I will not take a hook off of a fish. I don't like it. I don't want to put a worm. I don't want to put a worm on the hook. 

Gary 

Yeah I didn’t either. 

Joy 

But if there's a kid there, I'll do it. But if there's no other kids, I'm like, you do it. And because I want to show I could do this, but it's like, oh, I'm very squeamish about it. So I think also as beginners, that's when our most embarrassing moments occur or and Gary, you kind of clarified was like, we're climbers, but we're not climbers. So we dabble in these activities and so sometimes our nerves could be a little bit up here and we’re not paying attention to down here. That's perfectly normal. That’s why I like to see what other people's embarrassing moments are. Between the two of you, you can answer as one, or you can answer as individuals. What is your must have piece of outdoor equipment that you never leave home without? Like if you were in the outdoors, what did you have to have equipment wise in order to feel like you have what you need? 

Haley  

There's a lot. 

Gary 

There is a lot. 

Haley  

So how many can we list? Put to the top of this one? 

Gary 

I can answer. I know mine. Mine's actually pretty basic though. Mine is and this is what I kind of have told my family to. And they're kind of wondering like, what should I pack? Like what jacket? I always say, and what I do with myself, is that I always bring, like, my thickest down jacket that I can compress a little bit smaller anywhere I go, just to have that like sense of peace, of mind, of yeah, no matter how cold it gets, I at least have like The warmest Jacket I own. So, I feel like no matter where I go, what I do, if I don't really know. Because, you know, it's kind of hard to tell the weather in some areas, like, you know, the exact area that we're going to be camping or backpacking, too. I always bring my warmest, like, down jacket just to have that peace of mind. So yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 

Haley  

I guess mine would be probably my Kula cloth which, if anyone does not know what that is, it is a well, it's one brand of a reusable pee cloth. I have a bunch of them now. And just recently I got a custom Leave No Trace Kulah cloth, which is my new favorite, but it's, mainly, well, anyone can use it, but for women who need to pee and you don't have toilet paper or toilet. It's kind of an antimicrobial pee cloth. And you can clip it onto your backpack or, I don't know, keep it folded in your pocket. They come in all different fun patterns, and especially in our job. And because we're camping so much like every night, I bring it in the tent with me and it's right by my head. So that when I have to go in the middle of the night or first thing in the morning, I bring it on hikes. I bring it literally anywhere. 

Gary 

Yeah, it doesn't smell at all, it's super nice. 

Haley  

And you can wash them. 

Joy 

I've never ...I've never heard of them. I'm going to go look it up. 

Haley  

Yes. It's K-U-L-A. 

Gary 

You la go okay, okay. Like, you. 

Haley  

Know, they're based they're actually based out in Washington state. and they're really great and Leave No Trace did a lot of work with them as well to get Leave No Trace messaging out there, but. 

Gary 

I had to go. 

Haley  

Meet them. Yeah, they're really fun. They come in all different patterns and stuff. 

Joy 

I'll look it up and I'll put it on the website for our listeners as well. One last question. What's your favorite local spot like? If you could just go anywhere, daily or once a year, what where is it that you're going to tend to go? 

Gary 

Is that so many places? Yeah, I love the... 

Joy 

Yeah. Do you even have, like, is there a home base for you? No, you're just all over. So what kind of space do you like when you get to these places? What are you gravitating towards as, like that decompress or what do you need to separate or. You're in the same area, but you might go to the lake and you might go on a hike. What kind of spaces do you need to be able to reconnect with who you are? 

Haley  

That's a good question. Yeah, I would go pretty much anywhere in the state of Wyoming. I'm in Wyoming. I'd be happy, but I just think it's beautiful. We spent a good amount of time there throughout our travels, and I just think it has the perfect blend of mountains and wide open spaces. And granted, I have not spent much time there in the winter. So I guess in my ideal situation, it's summer there. 

Gary 

For me, this is actually probably not a local spot, but it's kind of a new place that I really enjoy nowadays. because we talk a lot about fish. We have talked a lot about fishing. this past hour, but we mostly had done trout fishing at first. But when we were in Florida this past year, we had done a lot of saltwater fishing and specifically a pier and bridge, saltwater fishing. And so that whole pier. So it didn't have to be in Florida, but going to appear Outer Banks the Outer Banks. Even in California, Washington, they have a lot of piers and just that community of, you know, everyone's sharing knowledge and information. And it's a really relaxing time, I'd say, to go fishing. So I like pier fishing a lot. 

Haley  

It's way less stressful than, like, trout fishing. 

Gary 

Yeah. 

Joy 

What's so interesting that you bring that up to my cousin's son? And my cousin and her husband are not outdoor people, and he is a young kid. So I'll show you the cartoon character, go fishing or something like that. And he's like, mom, take me fishing. And it's the same sort of idea. He he has been educated by this community where he was going out in Chicago, at the lakes or the piers to be able to, and, again, such an eloquent way of saying, you know, you can come in and be a part of a community without ever knowing these people because you love fishing. 

Gary 

You have a commonality. Totally. Yeah. 

Joy 

Oh, thank you both for your time. It was interesting to see how your professional brains work, and then kind of get to know you as a personality. We appreciate your time. 

Gary 

Yeah, I thank you. 

Becki 

As we wrap up this episode, we want to share some resources for you. Check out this episode's notes page for resources on Leave No Trace, Kula Cloths and how to join the LNT Traveling Team. We extend our heartfelt gratitude to Haley and Gary for sharing their invaluable insights and stories with us. The Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast is the brainchild of Melissa Weddle, Becki Batiste, and Joy James. Special thanks to our dedicated podcast producer, Dave Blanks from App State University Communications for his exceptional work behind the scenes. We leave with you the following quote by Chief Seattle. "Take only memories. Leave only footprints."  

On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity, Dr. Joy James, a professor in App State's Department of Recreation Management and Physical Education, interviews App State graduate, Grayson Smith. Outward Bound plated a pivotal role in Grayson's outdoor and personal development. Throughout Grayson's time in the program they faced setbacks and challenges in the outdoors and learned with the help of a community to believe in themselves and persevere. Topics covered include building community, emotional vulnerability, the fun scale and the power of journaling.

Show Notes

Outdoorosity Team Email: [email protected]

Pronouns: they/him

Outward Bound

North Carolina Outward Bound

Blue Ridge Parkway Overlooks and Trails

Journaling Ideas

Transcript

Becki

Welcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity where we encourage you to get outside and keep going outside. Here we will share Appalachian State stories that entertain, inspire, and inform listeners about living an active outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story. The goal… to get you outside and keep you going outside to improve your overall wellness. This podcast is presented by The Hope Lab, where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise and play on the health, environment and human development. The vision of The Hope Lab is to continue developing the foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out at hopelab.appstate.edu. Hi, my name is Becki Battista. I'm a professor in exercise science at Appalachian State University and a self-proclaimed outdoor physical activity addict. I'm your host for today's episode of the Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast. On today's episode, team member doctor Joy James, a professor in recreation management, interviews App State recent graduate Grayson Smith where they tell us how their Outward Bound experience inspired them, and they have come full circle working for Outward Bound.

Joy

Hi, I'm Joy here with Grayson. Thank you for joining us, Grayson.

Grayson

Yeah, I'm really excited to be here.

Joy

If you could introduce yourself, kind of tell us where you're from and what your favorite outdoor activity is.

Grayson

Yeah. So my name is Grayson Smith. I use they/he pronouns, I identify as trans mask. I grew up in Raleigh. Atlanta until I was about six. And then Raleigh. I call Boone home now. I've been here almost five years. Oh, gosh. Favorite outdoor activity? There's so many things I could say. I've gotten really into climbing over the past few years. That was something that I used to be pretty scared of as a teenager. And, being in the rec program here at App has really helped me, reopen up to that, that activity and, kind of push those fears away.

Joy

Cool. Glad to hear that. How did you first get interested in the outdoors?

Grayson

So I went to a high school in Raleigh that required us to go on an outbound trip as freshmen. I had never heard of Outward Bound. I had never really. I never understood that there was an outdoor industry. I didn't really go hiking as a kid. I grew up in two major cities. two major capital cities. I just didn't. I wasn't really exposed to recreation until I got to high school and went on this Outward Bound trip with my freshman class, and I was the only student that enjoyed it. And I kind of kept that to myself. I was like, ooh, this bugs and camp. Ooh, gross dirt, you know? And everybody was like, like, this is so. I loved every second of it. It was my favorite thing. My instructors probably remember me being the only person that was excited about it. So from then on, from about the age of 14, I had the goal and passion for working for Outward Bound as an instructor one day which is crazy, because eight years later, here I am. I just had my interview yesterday for that position. So. Yeah.

Joy

I'm so excited for you.

Grayson

Yeah, it's going to be exciting.

Joy

Just in case some of our listeners don't know what Outward Bound is. How would you describe it?

Grayson

Outward bound. Oh, okay. Let me see if I can make this a short definition. Outward Bound to me is a community of people and a program that provides courses like backpacking courses. there's paddling, there's climbing, all integrated. Either it can be separately. It's like just a backpacking course or all those three things together, and then various other leadership skills, communication, self-reliance, mental health, just all the kinds of things that can help shape you and help you grow as a human. Outward Bound. They just really, really care about youth, and they really care about inspiring young people to connect with nature and, you know, connect and grow more into themselves.

Joy

Okay. Thank you. So it's something I can pay for. I can do semester-long, week-long activities.

Grayson

So the courses run, typically on average from 4 to 30 days. And then we do have like, 50 day outdoor educator course around that, number of days and then also a semester course. The cool thing about NCOBS which is North Carolina Outward Bound School, is they actually run programs in a couple of different states, which is, let's see, North Carolina, Florida, Virginia.

We have got someone like the Outer Banks, like beach stuff, which is kind of cool. And then, the season actually just ended, and Table Rock, which is about an hour outside of Boone, near Morganton. And so that season ended on Halloween, October 31st. And, all the people are moving down to the Everglades in Florida which is really cool. The base camp is like on an island. I've never been, but I've heard really cool stories. Then they also run a semester course in Patagonia. So, you do a month there, a month in the Everglades and a month in the Blue Ridge Mountains. I'm not sure of the order. I think you've got, like, a day break.

Like you've obviously you're flying. You might stay in a hotel or somewhere, like, you know, but, yeah, I mean, there's so many options.

Joy

And so when you were in high school, was it a week, like, how long was your course?

Grayson

Our course was three nights and four days.

Joy

And you got jazzed just from three nights and four days?

Grayson

My gosh, yes, it was. I mean, the bus ride. They're getting out of the bus. I mean, I ended up going on a course for 30 days. I applied, I think 2 or 3 months after I got back from that trip, which is in April so I applied over the summer, got accepted to my 30 day course in Oregon that October, and was there the next summer.

Joy

And remind me how old you were. For the first time in high school.

Grayson

I was, I had oh, actually, I might have been. No, I would have been 14 about to turn 15.

Joy

Okay. Yeah. And so then a couple months later, you go on a 30 day course.

Grayson

About a year later, I applied a few months later, and then about a year later I was in Oregon.

Joy

Okay. So Outward Bound has really been in your life since you're about 15? Yes. Okay. Cool. All right. So the next question we have here is what are your favorite outdoor activities. You've mentioned that you enjoy climbing. What other outdoor activities do you do or enjoy?

Grayson

Yeah. I really like backpacking, just generally speaking. It brings me a lot of joy to carry all my things around, even though it's really heavy and can be painful at times. I just find a lot of joy in the fact that I'm just like, ooh, where's my pen? Well, I know where it is. It's right here in my pocket. You know, like I have all my things right on my person. I can put my bed anywhere. I have beautiful views, you know, I'm with my friends. I can cook them a meal. Let's see, I took a paddling class. Let's see, was it last semester or the semester before with Grace Fortune, who works at UREC now.

Grayson

And, that was an amazing class. I had a lot of fun. Yeah. She's great. Yeah, we had a really great time. that really opened up my passion for paddling as well. That's also something that I'll hopefully be trained in, with Outward Bound, whenever that does happen. But yeah, kayaking would be my, my preferred paddling.

Joy

Are you thinking kayaking like whitewater or flat water or any of it?

Grayson

So I have some, some flat water kayaking experience. I grew up going to summer camp, so I learned a lot of it there. and then with that paddling class we were on, all flat water. We didn't get the chance to do any whitewater. I did go to the Whitewater Center in Charlotte while I was working with Outward Bound this summer. It was a little intimidating because, you know, it's intense there. It's, you know, it's like a real rapid situation. We went rafting before, and I fell out at the top of the run and, like, was swimming all the way down. And it was just so much. And I was like, I'm not going to do the whitewater kayaking today.

Joy

Did water get up your nose?

Grayson

Oh, I thought, I thought so many bad things were going to happen to me because I swallowed the water and I couldn't get out of it. It was just so funny. But type two fun would be that. That was my type two fun experience with some white water.

Joy

So our listeners may not be as familiar with type one. Type two can you kind of tell us what you mean by that?

Grayson

Yeah. So type one fun would be like, yeah, I just had a lot of fun. Like, you did an activity and you're like, that was super cool. That was really fulfilling. That made me really happy. Type two fun would be like, in the moment I'm really kind of scared. Or I'm like, what's the outcome going to be like? This is kind of really like a roller coaster, maybe like you're going up the roller coaster, you're freaking out. And then once it falls, you're like, woohoo!

Joy

Yeah.

Grayson

So, type two fun would be like, you look back on that moment when you were scared and you're like, but that was kind of fun though. Like, let's be honest, that was kind of fun. And then, type three is just like, nope, that wasn't fun at all. I don't want to do that again. I'm done. Yeah.

Joy

All right. Thank you for that explanation. How do you think you became comfortable in the outdoors,

Grayson

That's a good question. I think just growing up. So again, I didn't really have access to your typical recreation. I mean, I went on Outward Bound trips, which I was really, really blessed and privileged to be able to do that but I didn't have anything locally that I was really getting into as a kid.

Joy

And then how...were you involved with scouting?

Grayson

No, I worked for a Girl Scout camp, two summers ago, and that's really my only experience there. Even growing up at summer camp, it was still, you know, it wasn't like outdoors, the way that we think of it in the sense of, you know, this field. It was more just like your stereotypical summer camp activities, but I'd say just just I've always I've never not been interested in the outdoors.I feel like that's why this is a hard question for me to answer, because, I mean, as a kid, I was always, you know, digging up worms in the backyard and playing in the dirt and, you know, collecting acorns and burying them for squirrels because I thought that they would come in and then get the nuts, you know, just just things like that. I've always just had a passion for all sorts of critters and nature and everything.

Joy

So was there any, like, friends or adults or really, it sounds like those were foundational, but then Outward Bound really kind of pushed you in this kind of adventure.

Grayson

So I would say there's two people that would be notable in my Outward Bound journey, which would be Stiles Rader. She actually went to my high school, which I won't name, but she did go to my high school and we applied to, like, all the same colleges.

Joy

And she was here.

Grayson

She was here. She went to App. She worked a lot with Jerry Cantwell. That's how she got to Outward Bound. Yeah. I actually went to her house for, like, an Outward Bound alumnae meeting one time, and I was the youngest student. Or, like, you know, I, I was the one that had been on a course most recently. So that was super exciting for all of the people that we're like from the 70s and 80s on their courses. So yeah, Stiles was a really big inspiration for me because once I figured, I mean, we don't even really know each other that well, but just knowing that there was a person that came out of my high school that, you know, now is and the outdoor industry was really, really cool. And I actually went back to Outward Bound as a senior because I had to do it like an internship or a capstone project my senior year of high school. And I just loved it so much that I was like, I need to go back, I need to go do this. Stiles wrote me a little note on a chocolate bar and was like, you've got this. I was a student mentor, so I obviously wasn't an instructor. You know, I'm in high school. But, you know, they let me lead some, like, evening circles and teach some lessons and yeah, you know, they definitely stepped in a lot because this was five years ago almost.

Joy

See how much you've grown.

Grayson

I know, and it's so crazy now because the person that I was in contact with about being a mentor for the freshmen when I was a senior was Whitney Setser, who I text now regularly. We’re both Boygenius fans, big Swifties and she still works for Outward Bound and does the same. So I actually might be going back with her, at the end of this year or beginning of next year, maybe spring to talk to the freshmen at Saint Mary's.

Joy

It just sounds like this community of yours just started building in 2015. Well not in 2015 but when you were 15 and you had no idea.

Grayson

No, it was! It was 2015!

Joy

Oh it was?! Ok! I made a good guess.

Grayson

Yeah. And, yeah, it's crazy. And I remember, I got to all-staff training. Let me mention this. So there are...there's several, base camps, like I said, the Everglades and then in North Carolina, we've got the Outer Banks and then the two, that I'd say are more well known would be Table Rock and Cedar Rock and Cedar Rock is near Brevard for location context. So we were down at Cedar Rock, and I was introduced to Whitney, who I thought I was being introduced to and then I was like, your name sounds really familiar. Like, do you, you know, like, I have been on I've been with Outward Bound, whatever. And we figured out that she was working with my high school. I texted her the other day, I was like, did you see this thing that Taylor did? And, you know, do we have fun?

Joy

Yeah. Well, I think that the fun thing for me to think about this for you, Grayson, is that imagine the influence you're having on other people. Like you're just part of this chain now of influencing people who come into the Outward Bound community into ways that you're not going to be able to imagine.

Grayson

I know, and that's something that I think about so often. And the main reason, really, why I want to be an instructor is because of the impact my instructors had on me over the years. I mean, I would not be anywhere near the human that I am right now without Outward Bound and without that community.

Joy

Understood. So this next question, you've kind of been answering it, but I'm going to kind of direct in a different way. So that next question is tell us a story about an outdoor experience that has influenced you. So it could be a funny story. It could be a lesson learned story. Do you have anything like that you'd be willing to share with our listeners?

Grayson

I do, so let's see if I can recall this. Well, so this was, let's see, July of 2016. I was in Oregon. I had been on my course for a little over two weeks...maybe even three at this point. We were going to summit a peak and it was Broken Top in the Three Sisters Wilderness and oh my gosh, the most beautiful place, really, that I've ever been. I love Oregon so much. And so that morning we wake up. I'm pretty stoked. You know, it's early. It's like four. Sun's not up yet. Whatever. There's snow and ice on the ground. We'll figure it out. We've got this. So we pack up our things and we get going and it was probably the most terrifying experience of my entire life.

The way up there, I was, like, freaking out panic attack mode. Like, not...

Joy

Type three fun?

Grayson

Yes. I was like, get me out of here. I don't want to be here. This is not. And, you know, my instructors at the time, they were pushing me because they thought that I was in my comfort zone of like, okay, I'm uncomfortable, but I can do this. But I was in a panic. Right?

And they later were like, we're sorry that, you know, we didn't recognize that. But back to the important part of the story. So we finally make it up there. I was freaked out the whole time I get to the summit, I barely remember it. I remember, like, looking around and just being like, get me off this mountain right now! Like. And I was like, 16. Oh, my. It was a no-cussing course. And I was like get me the f... like, no, like, I need to leave right now. So I get down off the summit. I'm not in the picture with all of my crew mates. They have a picture together. I'm not in it because I was like, get me away. I mean, we had like hand lines.

Joy

Was it the height? What was freaking you out.

Grayson

It was the height without safety. I'm not really afraid of heights like I've been in planes. I've been on roller coasters you know, but it's when I don't have railings or anything. You know, then you're like,

Joy

High Risk.

Grayson

Very high risk. And, like, I mean, I'm looking down this steep, steep, icy, snowy hill to an opening of jagged rocks that probably drops like 100ft down. I'm like, I don't want to fall into that. Please, can we go somewhere else? So my crew ended up, after, you know, everybody celebrated being at the top. We had some lunch and we started the trek down and I just couldn't do it. I mean, walking down this slippery slope, like, rocks, ice, snow. I was just, like, not about it. So one of my instructors stayed back with me and the rest of my crew and my other instructor just, you know, they were all like, we're good to go. We're just going to walk down, which was a little embarrassing for me. You know, I was 16 at the time. I was one of only two women on that course. So it was already kind of like a weird situation and we're hiking down and I was, again, just freaking out the whole time. And my instructor was like, all right, here's what we're going to do. Come here. And again, like I said, this was a no cussing course. Okay. We're in. We're on the side of this mountain trying to get down it. No one else is in sight.

Joy

What's the altitude? Just to give us perspective.

Grayson

I don't think it was. It might have been a 12. It's not it's not. It's less than 14.

Joy

Ok. That’s still significant.

Grayson

It's definitely significant. And especially when you're there you're like, oh yeah I'm on this mountain. So we're so we're there. We're like not even halfway down. And he's like come here. Like we're going to do something. And I was like, okay. And he's like, come over here and here's what we're going to do. You're going to scream your name, but you're going to scream it like this. And then he screams his name and he goes, (I'm going to say my name first). But he goes, my name is Grayson Smith. And I'm so awesome and made me scream this into the void of the wilderness. And I was like, I was like, please don't make me do that. He's like, we're doing it. He's like, I'll go first. So he goes first. And then I was like, Okay.

Grayson

And I did it. And I was like, oh. And I just...I look back on that moment a lot and I later found out that that was his first course as an instructor.

Joy

Oh, wow.

Grayson

Which really, really has stuck with me now that I'm, you know, looking on that path and, it's just it's just crazy to think how little this one sentence that my instructor made me say to just be like, get out of your head for a second. Let's just cuss it out. You know? I'm like, let's just do something fun and different for a second. And of course, I'm like, no, please don't make me. And I did it.

Joy

It changed? Like, were you able to continue down or just?

Grayson

It still was a hard trek down, but I definitely felt more capable. And, I mean, I would say that looking back, probably in that moment, I was like, oh, that was stupid. Now I still have to go do this. But looking back, that was so

Joy

A very powerful moment.

Grayson

It was a very powerful moment. Yes.

Joy

Well, cool. Thank you for being willing to share that with us. Yeah.

Becki

Today's episode is proudly sponsored by the Hope Lab. At the Hope Lab we're committed to finding creative ways to promote outdoor activity. Visit appstate.hopelab.edu to explore the myriad of benefits of spending time outdoors. As we listen to Grayson, you can hear how important the Outward Bound community is to helping them explore their outdoor interest, not only being mentored by Stiles and then becoming a mentor themselves it’s important to their development as an outdoor leader, wasn't it interesting to hear how the Outward Bound instructor helped Grayson move through their uncertainty? The instructor changed Grayson's headspace through empathy and activity. While it was still difficult, the instructor and Grayson shared a powerful moment. Grayson's insights shed light on a powerful concept embracing discomfort and vulnerability in the outdoors. They highlight the importance of overcoming personal barriers and sharing vulnerabilities, which, though challenging, can foster bonds and personal growth. Let's get back to the interview with Grayson.

Joy

So, these next questions are kind of like we're trying to help our podcast listeners who may not be comfortable in the outdoors but they aspire to it. So it's kind of like...we want to get the dirt on being outside, like some of your perspectives. So what's your biggest fear about being in an outdoor setting?

Grayson

The dark. I love the stars, and I love how it feels when I'm, like, all cuddled up in my tent. But if I have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, no thank you. Especially when you're in areas that have wild animals.

Joy

Even with a flashlight and everything?

Grayson

It's just that I have a lot of anxiety. I'm like, something's going to come out of the woods. Something's going to happen. Nothing has ever happened, right? Nothing ever really happens. Like the animals are scared of you, you know, I mean, I literally...

Joy

It doesn’t help your anxiety, though.

Grayson

No it doesn't. You know, I'm just like, what was that noise? What was that twig snapping? Like, something's coming...but yeah, I just, I think, yeah, I mean, you have your headlamp, you've got your people for the most part. I guess it would be more if I was on a solo trip. I would be freaked out if I were to hear something.

Joy

I take it that caving is not an option.

Grayson

Well, actually, you'd think, I have been caving a couple times. The first time was very scary. Luckily, I had my friend Bronwyn Player with me who we went through this program together, so we got through it with some laughs. Definitely some type two fun. Then I went back again and had such...a much better experience and loved it a lot. I would totally go again. I don't think I could guide, but I definitely enjoy caving, which is interesting that you point that out. Maybe it's like the open woods.

Joy

There's critters in the cave, but it's not the same.

Grayson

It’s not yeah, there's like bats and little things.

Joy

There are the noises that are occurring or drips and yeah, whereas I can totally see like the first time I did tarp tent, I've always done tents. And so about ten years ago, Jerry Cantwell said, here, just use this tarp for backpacking. It'll be lighter weight for you. I was taking my nephew and I was like, paying attention to everything. But it's funny because a tent is no different.

Grayson

It's really not.

Joy

But there's something about being able to see. And I'd wake up and I look out. Whereas a tent, I would be like, ohh there’s nothing and I’d go back to sleep.

Grayson

You’re in a house. It’s your little tent. It's got four walls. You're protected. But really you're not.

Joy

You’re not.

Grayson

It's the same material. It's all the same. So it's really a mindset I think of just like, all right, nothing's going to happen. And if something happens, it's not because a bear comes out of the woods and bites my head off, that's not what's going to happen. You know?

Joy

Right. Although I think you bring up a really good point that I think a lot of people struggle with, like there's this intellectual knowledge, I know, I mean, there's going to be some danger, but really, that the bears bite my head off and I've got some protection. The chances of that happening are very low unless I'm out west with grizzlies.

Grayson

Right.

Joy

And yet my emotional state or my anxiety still will play tricks with me. And so it's the frame of mind that I've got to get myself into. And another experience I had, we had a bear that came along, a beach that I was at, and I was with the ranger. It was in Alaska.

Grayson

Okay? I was like, a bear on the beach. That’s cool.

Joy

I was just walking to the beach. Turned out it was a black bear, but we didn't know this because it was dark. Like you're saying. I was sitting on a boat, just kind of looking at the stars, and I saw something walking, and I thought it was a man at first, because that's what your mind goes to. But then you're in the middle of Alaska. So anyway, I started yelling out what I’m supposed to do. Hey, bear, bear and the bear did what it was supposed to. It turned around and took off. Yeah, but my ranger who was up in the tent, she's like, what is happening? I'm like, well, I just saw a bear. And so she kept me awake till 1:00 in the morning with the gun between us, because, you know, you have...and I was like, well, the bear's gone now. Why are we still awake? But I had freaked her out, you know. So again, intellectually....and she was the ranger. I was just volunteering. So it is an interesting dynamic that the dark can play havoc. And so how do I reframe myself so that I can sleep or do whatever I need to do?

Grayson

Now that you've brought up the beach, I'm just thinking of I also really don't like murky water. Murky water also. It's when I don't know what's there. That's my problem. And so I also try to think about well, I go, I go in the ocean, I go swimming in the ocean. There's terrifying animals in the ocean. Sharks come up to the shore all the time.

Joy

You know, you see those waves? The pictures now of them in the waves with people surfing.

Grayson

Yeah. And they just and they're you know, I mean things do happen very rarely but...

Joy

So murky water like swamp or lake.

Grayson

Like a lake, I really struggle with getting in a lake. I like a river. But the lake with like the still and it's dark and it's icky looking, but, no. Yeah, I would say that thinking about if somebody does have kind of that similar fear of like, I don't know what's out there, what's going to happen and also goes swimming in the ocean or it's been to the beach. I sometimes think about that. And I'm like, these animals are minding their own business. Let me just mind my own business.

Joy

That’s a good way to put it, Grayson. You brought up something else that research shows you're not alone in that murky water idea, and that people who've only swam in swimming pools are less likely to enjoy outdoor recreation, like paddling or swimming at the ocean because they can't see what's at the bottom. So that's one of the things, as a recreation professional, I've been trying to figure out. How do I get people more exposed to these murky environments?

Grayson

That’s such an interesting thing because the summer camp that I grew up going to, we had, a swim lake. We didn't have a pool. And so it was like sand and mud and murky and seaweed growing on the bottom. And I, I don't know, I never as a child, I never had those fears. I think maybe it's just now that I have, like you're saying, the knowledge that there are things that could happen to me. I'm not just like this kid with all of my like, whoa, like, oh, just do whatever I want, you know? Now I know that there's things that could happen. And, you know.

Joy

I'm just, frankly, grossed out by touching the bottom of a lake.

Grayson

Yeah, I know I'm like ewwwww.

Joy

You know, and again, intellectually, I know it's fine.

Grayson

Nothings wrong, it's just like, ewww.

Joy

If I put my Chacos on, I'm good. You know?

Grayson

Touching the bottom of the lake for me, that’s what gets me.

Joy

All right. So what is the most embarrassing outdoor moment you may have had?

Grayson

I want to have to...I don't even know. I have to think on that one. The ones that are coming to mind right now, I feel like aren’t embarrassing in reality. But were embarrassing for me.

Joy

That's fine.

Grayson

Well, But it was like when I was on my senior expedition, I was just having, like, this breakdown, and it was just a really vulnerable place to be. it wasn't so much as embarrassing as it was, just like I'm crying in front of all of my peers right now and freaking out and I don't know why, and I can't control it. In that situation, you know, everybody was able to be like, what can we do for you? And I didn't know them super well, except for Bronwyn, and, yeah, it was just, I mean, I wouldn't even say embarrassing. I would just say just a lot emotionally. Very vulnerable, you know? And sometimes that's what happens, you know, when you're in these groups. I mean, that was on our first day. We only did one night on this on our capstone trip with Jerry. It was the first night. I was just freaking out. And it happens, you know, and and when those things do happen and you're like, I want my mom or I want my sister, or I want my best friend, or I want my dog, you know, whatever it may be, you don't have those things.

You've got your people right here. And even though that was like so uncomfortable for me I was like all right well this is happening. I'm sitting over here in the corner crying by myself. We're in a group like we're in a circle. I'm hysterically sobbing. No one is saying anything. And I was like, just so you guys know, like, I'm not doing so well right now. And it took me so long to get there because I'm just embarrassed, you know? I didn't know these people very well. Most of them were men. I don't really interact with men too much. I went to the all girls camp growing up, all girls high school, all girls dorm floor my freshman year, and now I'm trans.

So I just, you know, it's a lot of hesitation for me already. And I think being in this industry, accepting the uncomfortable and the vulnerable moments that happen can just, I don't know, I feel like I don't even know if I've been embarrassed because it's just moments like that where I'm like whew.

Joy

Well, you're bringing up some really great things that I think our listeners also experience, right? Like if I'm having an emotional breakdown in the middle of something in front of a group, that may prevent me from wanting to do it in the future. So this idea of trying to work through uncomfortable situations and knowing that people have your back and that it's like you said, it just is. I was freaking out, I was crying.

Joy

And yet and yet you still keep going back.

Grayson

Oh, yeah.

Joy

You still keep putting yourself out there. And I think that's a key thing to getting comfortable in the outdoors is if I can't get myself out there and I have fear and risk, I'll never go do anything because there's bears or because I can't pee in the woods or because I'm going to have an emotional...I might have an emotional moment. So you characterized it well. It’s being uncomfortable. Yeah. As opposed to embarrassing at the same time. There is a shame. Like, sometimes I feel an internal shame.

Grayson

I definitely felt shame and you know, I'm. I'm sitting here being very vulnerable. You know, stereotypically, males aren't really raised to express their emotions in that way. And I think that this industry has done a really good job of kind of reopening that and being like, why is this happening? Let's really talk about our feelings and like, it's okay to have feelings.

I think just, you know, it's hard, it's hard to, to be vulnerable and to...I have trouble crying in front of my roommate and best friend, you know, and, I think a lot of people struggle with that.

Joy

And then you're in the middle of woods with people you don't know, and you're crying.

Grayson

It’s dark. There could be a bear ten feet that way. And I'm having a panic attack in front of my professor.

Joy

Sorry, I'm not laughing.

Grayson

No, it's not what it is. It's type two funny is what it is. It's just funny like, you know, and I look back on that and I'm like, I really was not okay. And then...But I am okay.

Joy

Yeah.

Grayson

I'm fine, you know. And actually, funnily enough, that happened at the campsite that I was at as a freshman on an Outward Bound course because we were on base for this trip. so I was literally in the area that I discovered my passion for this, and I was like, oh, I want to go home. Don’t make me stay here!

Joy

Well, thank you for sharing that. I think that's the key thing is the vulnerability and and recognizing the emotional turmoil that you may be going through as you're struggling and persevering through something that can be uncomfortable. or challenging.

Grayson

Yeah. It can be really bonding for a group, too, you know, obviously that was a really big struggle for me. But, you know, the next morning we came together and were able to make some decisions that needed to be made. And we all, you know, were just like, if one person is uncomfortable, let's come up with a new plan. Let's come up with a new idea or a new route to take.

Joy

Yeah, yeah. Cool. Okay. This is going to change the tone a little bit. What is a must have piece of outdoor gear or equipment? Like you could never leave home without it. What can’t you live without in the outdoors? What would you like... You're kind of like...You're going. You've got to take it.

Grayson

Journal and the pen.

Joy

Tell me more.

Grayson

I have filled up so many journals from my time on Outward Bound and in the outdoors. It's just so even if I'm just like today we had oatmeal with raisins. Then we hiked ten miles. Now I'm tired, you know, just like. Right? I love looking back through those journals and I try to get really detailed with how I'm feeling. You know, sometimes I don't have time. I always like to write a little something down. But, I mean, I open up those journals from 2015, 2016, my letters to myself from whatever. And, I can see, like the mosquito that I slapped still there from five years ago, you know, like, it's just cool. It's just, you know.

Joy

That’s very cool.

Grayson

And I feel like my experiences are just in this little book.

Joy

Does it bring back the emotional part? When you're like, when you are reading some of the stuff. Does it bring you back to where you are?

Grayson

It does. Yeah. and, you know, on both of my longer courses. So I went on the 30 day in Oregon when I was 16, and then I went on a 14 day in California in July of 2021. I think I was 20, maybe I just turned 21. One person on both of those courses had to be evacuated for completely different reasons. One of them was mental health related, and it was really, really hard. And I wrote all about it in my journal. And sometimes I look back on that and I'm like, wow, like that happened. And you know, that happened to that person. And that also happened to me. you know, there's just a whole lot of emotions in there. And also it's really, really cool to see the growth and myself, you know, at the time, I was going by a different name, different pronouns, you know, and I didn't know that, that that was, you know, not who I was. And I always had kind of felt uncomfortable but just looking back at those journals and, you know, I would do little drawings on my solos and I can see and I am I do, I do some art. I did a lot of art in high school. And so, like sketching my little like, you know, we have solo reflection time for 20 minutes, and I sketch my view and I go back and I look at that and I'm like, I remember that view, you know? So I guess that's not even really like technical gear. That's just...but I

Joy

No. But it's a must have.

Grayson

It is a must have. Yeah, it's definitely a must have.

Joy

I can appreciate that. I was going to ask you about if you did art. So I'm glad you expanded a little bit because there's research out there on journaling and it's power for learning and then connecting and then seeing the growth. So I appreciate you sharing that as your must have. Last question for you is what's your favorite local spot in Boone to go be in the outdoors?

Grayson

I've found a lot of little spots on the Blue Ridge Parkway. They’re secret spots.

Joy

Okay, you can keep it secret.

Grayson

However, I will say if you drive the parkway even like ten minutes down and you see a little gravel pull off, you can find a waterfall, you know, like, so I've. I mean, there's a bunch of little waterfalls and creeks that I found that are definitely not unknown to the public, but, I couldn't even tell you if I wanted to, because I don't I couldn't. It would be like a coordinate thing.

I would say if you drive up and down the Blue Ridge Parkway, you can find a lot of good spots that are kind of secluded, and you can bring out your journal or a book and read by a little waterfall and skip rocks. Yeah, the parkway is definitely where all of my spots are.

Joy

That's why I like the parkway, too. Like you say, it may not be secret, but it feels secret when you're there. You're away from...

Grayson

It feels secluded and you can, like, go up to an overlook and there's a trail that, you know, where does this go? Who knows? You know. And then you find something and then you remember where it is. And I'm like, I'm going to go back there next week and read my book. I think it's just really about exploring what we have out here. Boone is just such a great place to explore nature and get connected to that community.

Joy

Absolutely. Well, what I'll do for our listeners is I'll put a link in to, North Carolina Outward Bound.

Grayson

Yeah. For sure.

Joy

If they wanted to get into it, is it best to take a course first or go work for them?

Grayson

So I will say, I worked there's a logistics coordinator last season, and there were a few of us that had been on a course prior and a few of us that hadn't. And I will say that the people that had definitely were a lot more aware of how important our job was and how we really needed to be on top of things. Not that the other people weren't. It was just like, I know what they are doing out there. I know how stressful it can be. So me being here on time with this water and this food is like so important. I can't say that it's, you know, that you should or you shouldn't because it's, you know, it's an expensive activity.

Joy

It is.

Grayson

There are scholarships and things. But I would say if somebody is looking to be an outdoor educator and has like, nothing, no experience at all, taking an outdoor educator course or even just going on a normal, even just a week, you know, just kind of getting a taste of what it is or just going and backpacking with your friends or going camping even like at Price Lake.

You know, it doesn't have to be so crazy. But, yeah, I mean, there's people at Outward Bound that majored in finance, you know, and I, I asked somebody once, I was like, oh like, what did you study in school? He said, accounting and finance. I was like, well that's okay. Like how did you get here? He's like, well, I just didn't like it. I like this better. Like cool. Like, you know, it's just everybody is from everywhere and it's really cool to be a part of it.

Joy

It's such a great point. So Grayson, thank you for your time today. We look forward to seeing what you do in the future with Outward Bound.

Grayson

Yeah, I appreciate it.

Becki

Participating in an Outward Bound course offers a valuable opportunity to cultivate skills and forge connections with fellow outdoor enthusiasts. One noteworthy aspect we'd like to spotlight is Grayson's essential outdoor companion. Their journal, a nature journal, serves as a record of observations and reflections distinct from a traditional diary. Through nature journaling, we can deepen our understanding of the natural world and gain insights into ourselves. Consider taking up nature journaling. It's a journey of discovery, waiting to unfold both in nature and within yourself. As we wrap up the interview, we want to share some resources for you. Check out this episode's notes page for resources on our bound, the fun scale, and journaling. We extend our heartfelt gratitude to Grayson for sharing their invaluable insights and stories with us. The Appalachian Atrocity Podcast is the brainchild of Melissa Weddle, Becki Battista, and Joy James. Special thanks to our dedicated podcast producer, Dave Blanks from App State University Communications for his exceptional work behind the scenes. If you would like to reach out to us, you can reach us at [email protected]. We leave you with the following quote. The greatness of a community is most accurately measured by the compassionate actions of its members. Coretta Scott King.

On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity, Dr. Joy James, a professor in App State's Department of Recreation Management and Physical Education, interviews App State graduate, Mary Bowman. While a student, Mary created a podcast called "Mumbling Mountaineer Minutes," wherein she explored Student Perceptions of Physical Activity Incorporated into Science Lessons. Listen to this podcast within a podcast as Mary interviews herself. This episode has so many levels. 

Show Notes

Mary Bowman, She/Her

Transcript

Becki Battista

Mary Bowman

Thank you.

Mumbler

So, tell us a little bit more about how kids activity in classrooms impacts your field, like recreation, national parks, that kind of stuff.

Mary Bowman

Mary Bowman

Yes, exactly. I mean, it's just habits, right? If kids make habits of getting outdoors, then they're going to be more likely to continue those habits throughout their life.

Mumbler

So here comes the question, what did you do as a kid?

Mumbler

You know what? I might just take you up on that, but there is something that I want to get back to just a little bit. You mentioned that there wasn't as much awareness of some of these recreational activities. Can you dive more into that? What are the challenges that the recreation field is facing as a result of low physical activity levels in children?

Mumbler

Wow. Interesting. Okay. So, it’s challenging to get kids to engage and aware of some of these outdoor activities.

Mumbler

Right. Of course, even with the little background I have on this topic, it's generally a well-known thing. Like I might not know all the specifics, but people know that there are benefits to getting outside, getting active, right? What are all the angles? I mean, during my time hosting this podcast, I’ve rarely encountered a topic that didn’t have criticisms.

Mumbler

Oh. Okay. So that's actually what I was going to say. Like, what is wrong with indoor activity?

Mary Bowman

Right. So, there's nothing wrong with indoor activity. That is actually kind of what the research I was working on with Dr. James focused on. So, since it was a pilot study that took place during November, there wasn't a lot of outdoor activity. What the surveys ended up analyzing was student perceptions of enjoyment and an indoor active lesson versus indoor non-active lesson.

Mumbler

Okay, interesting. So, you and I know that there are benefits of being active and being active in the outdoors. What can say recreation professionals do to try to solve this?

So funny you say that I recently had the opportunity to host a discussion about that very topic in my senior seminar class, So I asked my fellow students what we could do to lower the barriers that are preventing kids from participating. And we came up with a decent list. So first, having free or low cost programs, a lot of outdoor recreation programs and activities require a non-insignificant amount of money, like gear costs, like backpacks, tents, food, boots, clothes, all that kind of stuff that all racks up really quickly and that can prevent people from ever being able to participate. But also, things like admission fees or tickets to get in to get into some of these recreation areas that can also prevent participation. So, we talked about lowering that barrier.

Mumbler

That would be nice.

Mumbler

Mine as well. So, what else did yall come up with?

Mumbler

Something that's fascinating, but we don't have time for it.

Mumbler

So your classmates focus more on the local Parks and Rec aspect.

Mary Bowman

Yeah, so a lot of our discussions circle around local parks and rec and that's a great place to focus attention, get people more active in their community to foster initial relations, and then they can explore more specialized things by branching out. But as someone interested in working with the national Park system, I have like a thought or two about what the national Park System can do.

Mumbler

Yes, please, by all means.

Mary Bowman

So I mentioned a little bit before about how there is often programing with local schools during the offseason and national parks.

Mumbler

Right.

Mary Bowman

So essentially, and this doesn't sound very groundbreaking, but just continuing that, having more outreach programing, partnerships and that kind of stuff with local organizations to establish relationships, but also doing it on a larger, more dedicated scale, those programs can create foundational relationships between kids and parks that lead to those habits being created and continued throughout life. There are programs such as Muddy Sneakers and Wild Watch that engage school age children with outdoor activities and science, and then invite them to a site such as Grandfather Mountain Stewardship Foundation to explore more about what they have learned. And these programs teach some environmentally conscious behaviors to ensure their safety in the outdoors and since they're typically school age children, the safety of the outdoors itself.

Mary Bowman

Yeah. Science programing that gets kids outside and interacting with nature.

Mary Bowman

Helping them to foster a sense of appreciation. You could say!

Mary Bowman

Exactly!

Mumbler

So, we know what students are saying. What is research saying?

Mary Bowman

Right. So, kind of what we started talking about, researchers are looking at does physical activity in academic lessons increase enjoyment learning and does it actually help them to become more active? Unsurprisingly, the answer is a resounding yes. So, some of the studies that I read had researchers putting accelerometers on students and comparing physical activity during the interventions and during a control setting, which was just a typical like traditional lesson. Actual steps recorded were higher during the active lessons students reported higher enjoyment and overall academic performance was higher.

Mumbler

So pretty clear, huh?

Mumbler

Schools are so underfunded as is. So I guess focusing on things that won't help them be able to offer resources to their students. It's not going to be on the top of the list.

Mumbler

Okay. So research has proven that incorporating physical activity into the classroom increases student enjoyment, engagement, academic achievement and physical activity.

Mary Bowman

Yes. And people are thinking about and talking about ways to break down the barriers between children and physical activity and getting outside.

Mumbler

Yeah.

Mary Bowman

So lowering costs wherever possible, removing some of the competitiveness in local recreation and engaging with the community...

Mumbler

..to build those relationships and know what resources are available to them.

Mumbler

All right, Mary, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It was an absolute pleasure. You have the floor if you want to make any shoutouts.

Mary Bowman

Oh awesome. So thank you so much for having me. I would like to shout out to doctors James and Towner for their amazing research and perspectives, also to Stella Sapolsky because she's been awesome. Dr. James's 10:00 Senior Seminar class. Yall are also amazing. Mom and Dad, thank you so much for getting me outdoors as a kid and thank you listeners. Get up Get out and I'll see you out there.

Mumbler

Wonderful. Well, folks, that's all the time we have for today. If you have any questions or want to share your stories, go to the link of the description and you'll hear from me next week as we dive into the mystery of the Durham Park Bigfoot. Remember, Stay mumbling.

Mary Bowman

Are you telling me that there have been Bigfoot sightings at Durham Park?

Mumbler

Hey, what canoeing in places are there near here?

Joy James

Mary Bowman

On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity, Dr. Joy James, a professor in App State's Department of Recreation Management and Physical Education, interviews App State graduate, Britan Sides about their time at App State and more specifically the huge impact working at Outdoor Programs had on their life. 

Show Notes

UREC Outdoor Programs

Outdoor Equipment Rental at App State

Handshake

Bouldering/Climbing Rating

Price Lake Blue Ridge Parkway

Rough Ridge Trail on the Blue Ridge Parkway Info

https://transfer.appstate.edu/

- Transfer Admissions and Engagement supports transfer students at all stages of their education—from initial inquiry, throughout their transition to Appalachian, and during their academic and social journey. Please let us know how we can assist you!

Contact Information:

instagram username: @britanns

Transcript

Becki Battista

Joy James 

Britan Sides

Joy James 

On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity, Dr. Becki Battista a professor in App State's Department of Public Health and Exercise Science, interviews App State Exercise Science and Chemistry Alumna, Kennedy Williams about her journey toward gaining confidence and finding peace outdoors. 

Show Notes

App State HOPE Lab Resource Page

App State Student Orientation Undergraduate Leaders (SOUL)

App State Outdoor Programs

Campus Nature Rx Network

Hikes mentioned that are located along the Blue Ridge Parkway

Rough Ridge Trail on the Blue Ridge Parkway Info - This is an awesome trail to hike!

The Rough Ridge Trail is part of the Tanawa Trail. There is a parking area along the Blue Ridge Parkway called Rough Ridge - around mile post 303.  See the map below for the entire section of the Tanawa Hiking Trail.  

Contact Information:

instagram username: @kennedyalaina1

Transcript

Joy James

Welcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity, where we encourage you to get outside and keep going outside. Here we will share App State stories that entertain, inspire and inform listeners about living an active outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story with the goal to get you outside and keep you going outside to improve your overall wellness. This podcast is presented by the Hope Lab, where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise and play on health, the environment and human development.

Joy James

The vision of the Hope Lab is to continue developing a foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out at Hope Lab App State Dot Edu. Hi, my name is Joy James. I'm a professor of recreation management at App State and I love getting outside. I'm your host for the Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast today.

Joy James

On today's episode, team member Dr. Becky Battista, a professor of exercise science, interviews 2023 App State alumni, Kennedy Williams. Kennedy tells us about her adventures in the outdoors and how she took a few chances and stepped outside her comfort zone, got a job with URec’s outdoor programs and found nature and the outdoors to be a big part of her experience at App State.

Joy James

Today's episode is brought to you by the Hope Lab. One of the goals of the Hope Lab is to find ways to get people outside. Going out with a group on a hike is one way to gain skills and connect with others. Finding someone who's more experienced in the activity is often helpful as it begins to let you learn from them, regardless of what activity you choose to do outside.

Joy James

Just being outside can provide many benefits. Visit Hope Lab App State that edu to learn more about the benefits of being outside.

Becki Battista 

Welcome to our Outdoorosity podcast. So I am Becky Battista Kennedy. We'd like to welcome you. This is Kennedy Williams and she's here to talk to us about her experiences in the outdoors. So first, Kennedy, introduce yourself. Tell us why you chose app states and what your favorite outdoor activity might be.

Kennedy Williams

Well, I want to firstly start with thank you for inviting me to a podcast. I'm a senior here at Appalachian State University studying Exercise Science and chemistry. I'm from Raleigh, North Carolina, originally, and what inspired me to come to Boone, to Appalachian specifically, was my scholarship. Initially, Appalachian State was at the bottom of my list because I was unfamiliar with the area.

Kennedy Williams

I didn't know what the area consisted of and it was very rural compared to what I was used to. So I would say my scholarship is what reeled me in and the scenery is what kept me here.

Becki Battista 

So what are some things that you have enjoyed or after your freshman year? What made you want to stay?

Kennedy Williams

Well, I realized that there's a different culture around Appalachian as a whole and something that I've never seen before prior to coming to App. So, I really fell in love with the community, the individuals that I met, and the uniqueness that a lot of them had. I use it as a learning experience because, you know, the world is so vast and I just wanted to venture out from what I was used to seeing.

Becki Battista 

Tell us your favorite outdoor activity.

Kennedy Williams

I would say, right now...something that was really relaxing that I got to do over the summer was I got introduced to paddle boarding. Paddle boarding is really fun, even though I haven't gotten to the level where I can stand up on the paddle board yet. Still just (laughing) Yeah. Paddle boarding on my knees was pretty relaxing. I felt very empowered.

Kennedy Williams

I just felt like I was floating and the rest of the world around me was non-existent. It was just me in the water and that's it.

Becki Battista 

Have you paddle boarded around here around June at all?

Kennedy Williams

Not around, but actually it was an outdoor activity. But I did it indoors. But I can't wait to take that skill and the opportunity outdoors and it'll be so much better. I can only imagine.

Becki Battista 

That's awesome. How did you first get interested in the outdoors?

Kennedy Williams

Well, I've always been interested in the outdoors. Even as a kid, I would ask my parents camping and if we could go hiking and they weren't into those things, you know, doing paddle boats and going for boat rides, that was fine. But the hiking and the camping was a no no. So I've always wanted to do those things, but I never had a group of people to do it with up until coming to college.

Becki Battista 

And how did you find the group of people here? What did you do that sparked a friendship or a group that you could go on an outing with?

Kennedy Williams

Well, it started with “SOULS” being an orientation leader. Our bonding events required us to spend time with each other. And what better way to do that than to go on a hike or spend a night out having a bonfire? So that was when I was first introduced to different trails around Boone, and that was my first experience of doing a real hike, not just like a backyard.

Kennedy Williams

I'm hiking in the woods type of hike. It was a real hike on a mountain and it was liberating.

Becki Battista 

Are there any kind of memorable hikes that you went on or what's kind of your most memorable hike?

Kennedy Williams

Yes. So my first time going to Linville Gorge, I don't know which trail it was, but I've never seen views like that in my life. Because, well actually, having the ability to climb to see those views now on a plane that's different, but using your own body to climb a mountain and to see all of the scenery around you, it was just, I don't know, it was mesmerizing.

Kennedy Williams

I've never seen views like that before from hiking.

Becki Battista 

Yeah. Was it fall? Spring was there because, you know, it changes.

Kennedy Williams

It was during the summertime.

Becki Battista 

So beautiful, I'm sure. Weather was great. Yeah. Just kind of a perfect day. Would you ever go on a hike by yourself or are you more interested in just doing things as a group of friends?

Kennedy Williams

I would say that it depends on what type of hike. Something very simple and easy to navigate, would go alone. No problem. However, if it's something more complicated and more risky, then I would definitely go with a group because I don't trust myself enough to go on a major hike by myself just in case anything happens.

Kennedy Williams

You know, certain people who are more experienced may know what dangers to look out for. I would just freely roam and hike and think that everything's okay, knowing that there may be a few dangers, but you know, that's how I handle that.

Becki Battista 

So you talked about the SOUL group that got you into going on hikes. Was there a leader or was there somebody that kind of helped you feel comfortable doing this, these hikes that you now progressed into feeling pretty comfortable on climbing and a pretty good trail at Linville.

Kennedy Williams

There wasn't one specific individual, I would say just having that group as a whole and everyone encouraging each other to keep going was really nice. Also just having a mix of people with different skill sets.

Becki Battista 

As an extra scientist. So I always think about the technical aspects of a trail, like the physical activity part of hiking a trail and you know, you're going uphill and then downhill and you're climbing over things. There's a lot of great physical activity that you get within that, but then you also get tired and hungry. So are there any kinds of snacks or other items that you tend to be like, “I always have to have this when I go for a hike?”

Kennedy Williams

Oh, yes. So I always bring my mini backpack. Inside my mini backpack, I bring Band-Aids. I bring some type of bandana just in case. I also bring my personal care pack, which is really small but has the essentials for emergencies and I would say water for sure, a 40 ounce water bottle and sometimes another water bottle along with that.

Kennedy Williams

And then I also bring granola bars and little cheese, little string cheeses and a sandwich. That's it. That's all I typically bring.

Becki Battista 

Yeah, I think everybody always has that one food that they always tend to bring. And I think as you become a more avid hiker, you start bringing things like you talked about; an emergency kit, Band-Aids, blisters and bandana in case it gets hot because even though you're in the mountains, it can still get warm and hot. That's awesome.

Becki Battista 

I like that. How do you think you became comfortable in the outdoors? What is it about it that that you're like, “I really enjoy being outside.”

Kennedy Williams

I feel at peace when I'm outside. I feel like my body just feels a lot more relaxed, as if tension that I was carrying. While I'm inside, I really feel like there's weight lifted off my shoulder if I'm stressed and inside of my room and I go outside just for a few minutes and breathe in some fresh air and just sit with nature.

Kennedy Williams

I feel I feel like all that stuff is released for the moment and I'm relaxed and I'm just enjoying the sounds around me and appreciating. I tend to reflect on life when I sit outside and look at all the life around me, whether it's, you know, a human being or plants that are growing the grass. I acknowledge all of those things.

Becki Battista 

And do you feel you need to go like deep in the woods to get that? Or can you just go sit at like Sanford Mall or out at the Greenway? And when you're over at Levine Hall.

Kennedy Williams

Definitely not just in the woods. I try to find appreciation to every aspect of nature, whether it's just a small courtyard or whether I want to hiking trail or even outside of my work place or any academic building. I just try to appreciate every aspect of nature.

Becki Battista 

Over here at Levine Hall, we're right next to the Greenway. And so for me, I'm the same as you. I like those little breaks of my day where I just have to get outside and just to do the short little loop around the Greenway right by Levine Hall. And I feel like I can breathe and I can come back to work and get a lot more stuff done.

Becki Battista 

So I think, you know, you bring up a really good point about the importance of even 5 minutes outside can really calm your nerves and bring you back to right now. I can refocus and I can get on with my day so I think it's definitely important.

Joy James

When listening to Kennedy, it's clear how she grew to enjoy and appreciate her outdoor experiences while a student at App State. While the outdoors is not what brought her to upstate, the campus and the surrounding area certainly added to her overall experience. I appreciate how she had very little experiences in the outdoors, but was willing to engage in a few activities that were outside her comfort zone, like hiking and paddleboarding.

Joy James

Research supports what Kennedy discussed about how just being outside can bring peace and calmness, and that outside does not always have to mean being in the middle of the woods. It can be wherever you want to be, including a short walk outside or just on the greenway. Any amount of time you can spend outside can help your overall mood. In fact, a 2021 review indicated positive associations between being in nature and improve mental and physical health.

Joy James

Faculty and students associated with the Hope Lab are also active and investigating the links between nature and outdoors on overall health. Additionally, App State is a member of the College Nature RX Network, which is a coalition of campuses dedicated to promoting engagement in nature to improve and support mental and physical health. Let's get back to the interview with Kennedy to see what other adventures she engaged in while being a student at App State.

Becki Battista 

So now here's another hard question for you. So think about an outdoor experience that might have influenced you.

Kennedy Williams

So I'm going to go back to the Linville Gorge experience because I never sat I've never sat on the edge of a rock before that high. So it just it was something about the thrill and knowing the danger of that, but also knowing my boundaries, knowing my limits and knowing my level of expertise on what I could and couldn't do.

Kennedy Williams

But I, I don't know. I just felt so empowered by sitting on the edge of that rock. And ever since then, every time I go on a hike, if there's a rock or if there's, like somewhere where I can hang or let my legs hang, I'll take a picture there. Rough ridge is kind of an easier one. I did one there and there's also another one.

Kennedy Williams

I'm not sure if it's Trashcan Falls, which isn't a big hike, but it was still really pretty. It's very small, very simple. But there were so many different areas where you could take really nice pictures. There's this…what's it called? It's like a not a lagoon, but a little pool where the water flows into it. And a lot of people jump in there, jump in the pool and swim around.

Kennedy Williams

And I just…it was different. I think it's very beautiful.

Becki Battista 

Do you have a favorite season up here?

Kennedy Williams

Summer? Definitely summer. Boone summers are unforgettable.

Becki Battista 

Yeah, it really is quite breathtaking up here. I like the fall and the change of the colors and I love spring when the word hundreds bloom. But summer is pretty spectacular.

Kennedy Williams

Yeah, I would say that previously I. I was trying to find different ways to stay in Boone. Stay in Boone for the summer. I found the research that I did over the summer and also working at UVA, which also influenced me to learn more about outdoor programs and what all is out there. I didn't know what paddle boarding was for outdoor programs, so yeah.

Becki Battista 

So tell me, what is it that you do at UREC? What's your position?

Kennedy Williams

I'm just a Commonwealth supervisor, so I supervise individuals that want to come in and learn about climbing or individuals that know how to climb and just want to climb for fun. Or whether it's bouldering or top rope.

Becki Battista 

What is your favorite? What do you like to do? Top rope.

Kennedy Williams

Boulder Definitely top rope. I'm not the best at bouldering. Like I'm going to crush my fingers every time I try bouldering. It takes a lot of upper body strength.

Becki Battista 

Did somebody kind of encourage you? How did you get the position at URec on the climbing wall?

Kennedy Williams

It was through a job fair…an Outdoor Programs job fair. I think where you shop for some of one or the other.

Becki Battista 

And you just were drawn to working on the climbing wall, even having never climbed before.

Kennedy Williams

Yeah, I thought it was pretty interesting. I wanted something adventurous. I knew that I was going to be in a lab most of my days, so I needed something exciting, which was the climbing wall.

Becki Battista 

That’s very exciting. I'm thinking about  words of wisdom for somebody that has never climbed before and it can be kind of intimidating when you walk into the climbing wall and you see all these people climbing. And it's not an easy task like I have climbed before and it's hard. So what would you tell somebody that has never been to the climbing wall that it's like, I kind of think that would be interesting.

Becki Battista 

What advice would you give them?

Kennedy Williams

I would simply tell them to step out of their comfort zone because you never know what you may like until you try it. I didn't realize that I liked climbing until I tried it. My first time. I struggled my freshman year and I feel like we have a really good relationship at the climbing wall during practice and during training. My colleagues and supervisors were very encouraging and they wanted to see you grow at UREC.

Kennedy Williams

They wanted to see you grow in your skill set and I thought that that was really encouraging. So I would say for anyone who's trying to learn how to climb or is wondering what it's like, just go for it. Don't think about it too much. Just go for it.

Becki Battista 

Yeah, I agree. That's I think that's a great statement. I was opposite of you. So I also have climbed, but I started on a rock wall like I was literally in Colorado, my first climbing experience and then in Colorado. Yes. Yes, I know. I know. It was the same thing where it was. I was definitely very scared. They put us all on a very easy climb first to kind of build your confidence, and then after that, each day we kind of went to harder and harder climbs and I then I fell in love with it.

Becki Battista 

And then I moved here and I, I went to the climbing wall and I was like, oh, so different. It's just so it's completely gone. Yeah. And similar, but different. And I was like, Oh, kind of like being on the rock a little bit more, but sometimes you just can't have access to that, and the equipment is a lot of stuff to it.

Becki Battista 

But I just loved it too. I mean, it's, it's thrilling and it's scary, but at the end of it, when you get down, you're like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe I did that.

Kennedy Williams

What's one thing that you like the most about outdoor climbing over indoor climbing? What's something that just grasps your attention a little bit more?

Becki Battista 

I think it's the scenery. Like, I just remember climbing in Colorado and even though we weren't really like that high up, you looked out and there was a ledge and you could see all the way down to the bottom and you're like, I can't believe I'm really this high up. Like, that was…it was just the beauty of it that you can't replicate in a climbing wall.

Kennedy Williams

I can only imagine. That's so awesome.

Becki Battista 

It was fun. I climbed in on Lake Superior. There's a big rock surface, too, and that was the first time that we actually laid down. So you climb down like you belay down and then climb back up and there you're climbing down like you're belaying down and there's the lake right there. You've got to climb back up. So that was a very strange experience, but.

Kennedy Williams

I've never thought of climbing that way. You belay first or you go down first and then climb back. Yeah.

Becki Battista 

I was petrified, but I was actually with a group of students, so they were freshmen that were going to be freshmen at our university. And, we took them on this adventure and I had to show them how to do it. So and then they all did it. And it was great. It was a great sense of accomplishment.

Becki Battista 

So that's what climbing can do for you. It's like, I just did that. I can't believe I just did that. So it's really fun.

Kennedy Williams

I bet. I bet the students that did that, they have that story to tell for the rest of their lives.

Becki Battista 

Yeah, we did. We climbed, we kayaked and we hiked. It was a fun little adventure. Kind of got me hooked into being outside a lot, which now that I live here, you can be outside all the time doing whatever it is you want to do.

Kennedy Williams

And so yeah, it was my first experience with a professor that taught outside biology. Professors tend to teach outside at times whenever there is a specific lesson that we're learning. And I think that's pretty cool and unique about what's unique about our universities. It's really beautiful outside. So there's a lot of biodiversity. It opens up opportunities for learning in different areas.

Kennedy Williams

So I think that's pretty cool as well.

Becki Battista 

Yeah, there's a lot of research that occurs just on campus, like literally in the creek and on the leaves, like it's kind of fascinating. I agree. Okay, so I'm going to throw some questions at you, Kennedy, that we ask all of our participants. And so these are the dirt on getting outside. And so the first question is, what is your biggest fear?

Kennedy Williams

My biggest fear, let's see. I would say I have several. And my first would be falling off a mountain or falling off of a cliff, potentially getting attacked by something and not knowing what to do or how to respond immediately. I think that's it. Those are my only two.

Becki Battista 

Yeah, those are pretty good fears. I would be right there with you with getting attacked by something. As my friends and co-host would definitely say, my fear is being attacked by a bear. Oh. Second question for you is, do you have a most embarrassing outdoor moment?

Kennedy Williams

Let's see. I'm sure I do. I'll actually. Yes, during one of the hikes, I don't remember exactly which one it was, but I remember just tagging along. It wasn't planned. It was just at the spur of the moment. We're going to go hike. I just thought it was a good idea to go hiking in Birkenstocks and the rocks are very slippery.

Kennedy Williams

And, you know, going up the mountain, it was a breeze, but it wasn't as bad as going down. So I stumbled upon some slippery rocks and I fell on my bottom and scraped my arm, my knees, and I cracked my phone really bad. It was pretty embarrassing. It's not the worst. I guess I could share another one.

Kennedy Williams

Sure. So I tried jet skiing for the first time over the summer and I thought it was a breeze. I was excited. I hopped on, was very confident and the moment that the lifeguard told me that I had to go past a certain line, I couldn't stay close to shore. I started freaking out. I just sat there in the water as the waves went by.

Kennedy Williams

And I just sat there and I contemplated on whether I was going to just sit there in the water or go back to shore or what was going to happen. But I knew that it was going to end with me getting back to shore safely or me falling into the water. But I just embarrassed myself because I was screaming and I was crying.

Kennedy Williams

And the lifeguard, he had a few choice of words because he was fed up with me at that point. So that was really embarrassing. Yeah.

Becki Battista 

It's hard, it's challenging. You get kind of shocked at certain things and then you're like, Now I don't. I'm not really sure I know what to do.

Kennedy Williams

Yeah.

Becki Battista 

I totally understand. I mean, we all have some embarrassing moments in the outdoors. So you've talked to us before about things that you always bring in your pack. If you had one piece of outdoor gear or equipment that you could always have, what is that one piece that you'll never go outside without?

Kennedy Williams

I would say a blade, because, you know, you can potentially start a fire with a blade and you can also cut things with the blade. So I would definitely invest in one of those.

Becki Battista 

Yeah. Good. And then what is your favorite local spot? What's your go to place?

Kennedy Williams

That's a good question. This is going to sound very basic, but I enjoy going to Panera Bread. I don't know why. I just love Panera Bread. There's a little fireplace in there and I study in a little corner sometimes, or I'll enjoy a baguette, a whole one sometimes. I have. Don't tell anyone. But yeah, that's my favorite place.

Becki Battista 

Okay, now can I really appreciate you joining us. This has been great. You've got some really good stories and experience and things that I think other students and faculty staff can really think about in terms of just figuring it out or just trying it.

Kennedy Williams

Whatever it is, any opportunity that comes your way, go for it. Step out of your comfort zone, learn a new skill or two, and don't be afraid. Don't limit yourself.

Becki Battista 

I mean, that's the biggest thing is you just got to take that first step.

Kennedy Williams

And I want to thank you for having me on your podcast again.

Joy James

As we wrap up the interview, we want to share some resources for you. Check out this episode’s notes page for research from the Hope Lab about the effects of being in nature and being active outside, as well as resources on app states, outdoor programs, hiking trails and other topics. From our conversation with Kennedy, we want to thank Kennedy for her insights, stories and advice, which include not wearing Birkenstocks on a hike.

Joy James

That's a good one. Appalachian Outdoorosity was created by Melissa Weddell, Becky Battista and Joy James. We want to thank our producer Dave Blanks from University Communications. We leave you with the following quote by John Assaraf. “A comfort zone is a beautiful place, but nothing ever grows there.”

On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity, Dr. Joy James, a professor in App State's Department of Recreation Managment and Physical Education, interviews App State Biology Alumna, Adrianna Nelson about her passion for birding. 

Show Notes

https://today.appstate.edu/2020/06/26/nelson

http://ww.appalachianaudubon.org/

https://highcountryaudubon.org/

https://www.inaturalist.org/

https://merlin.allaboutbirds.org/

https://www.citizenscience.gov/

The Big Year -

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1053810/

Transcript

 Becki Battista

Adrianna Nelson

Adrianna Nelson

While attending App State, Lauren Moody discovered her love for backpacking. On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity, Lauren shares some of her favorite experiences getting outside. Lauren and Joy also discuss the importance of making the outdoors a welcoming space for all.

Show Notes

Wild: From Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail by Cheryl Strayed

A Walk in the Woods by Bill Bryson

https://outdoorafro.org/

https://latinooutdoors.org/

https://www.rei.com/blog/hike/pattie-gonia-backpacking-queen-releases-her-first-full-length-video

https://fatgirlshiking.com/

https://tnstateparks.com/parks/roan-mountain

Contact Information:

[email protected]

Instagram handle is @laurenl_m

Transcript

Becki Battista

Welcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity where we encourage you to get outside and KEEP going outside. Here we will share Appalachian State stories that entertain, inspire, and inform listeners about living an active outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story with the goal to get you outside and KEEP you going outside to improve your overall wellness. This

podcast is presented by the Hope Lab where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise, and play on health, the environment, and human development. The vision of the HOPE Lab is to continue developing the perfect foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise, and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out on hopelab.appstate.edu

Hi, my name is Becki Battista, a professor in Exercise Science and self-proclaimed physical activity addict. I am your host for the Appalachian Outdoorosity podcast today.

On today’s interview, team member Dr. Joy James, a professor in Recreation Management, interviews Lauren Moody.

Appalachian State University student Lauren Moody, of Marietta, Georgia, was recognized for outstanding leadership and service — she was the recipient of a 2020 Community Impact Student Award from North Carolina Campus Compact, a statewide network of colleges and universities committed to community engagement. While at the University she picked up the hobby of backpacking. Listen as she shares her experience and thoughts on how to make the outdoors a space for all.

Joy James

We want to welcome you to our podcast, Lauren, and thank you so much for being willing to talk to us today.

Lauren Moody

Yeah, thank you. I'm excited. I'm a little nervous, but excited to be here.

Joy James

Could you tell us a little bit about yourself, what your major is, where you're from, and what year you are here at App?

Lauren Moody

Yeah. So I am a senior here and it's exciting going into my last year. Yeah, I'm originally from outside of Atlanta, Georgia, so I'm about like five, 6 hours away from Boone, so a little bit far from home. I'm actually an interdisciplinary studies major, so it's a little wacky but kind of fun and cool. My program of study focuses on community development, so the way I view community development in like how I've kind of approached my program study is looking at really how culture influences the way communities develop and like how culture kind of converges with different things like government and like economic policy and how it all comes together to affect like how people build physical institutions in community, but also like that sociological sense of belonging.

Joy James

Sounds like you’re going to be doing a lot of community building and work in the future.

Lauren Moody

Yes, definitely.

Joy James

That's the goal. One other question. What are your favorite outdoor activities?

Lauren Moody

Backpacking, definitely, because I think it's just like a really cool, immersive experience outdoors. But just on a day-to-day basis, because you can go backpacking every day or like every weekend, I really do just enjoy going on like a good walk outside, just being in nature because I think that's one of the really important parts of advocating for people spending time outdoors. It doesn't have to be this big intimidating thing like backpacking. It can just be going to the Greenway and going for a walk.

Joy James

Absolutely. I agree with you. I love doing all those things. But like you said, with the planning and day to day are only an hour at a time. It's nice to be able to have those green spaces to go out to and just kind of do the outdoors.

Lauren Moody

Definitely.

Joy James

How did you first get interested in outdoors or nature or being able to enjoy these types of activities?

Lauren Moody

Yeah. So before coming to Appalachian State, I definitely had a deep appreciation for outdoor spaces. My family, when I was growing up, spent a fair amount of time in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, the most beautiful place ever. It's somewhere that's really important, especially to like my dad's side of the family, him and like his dad had always gone on fly fishing trips there.

Then it became something that was important to like my individual family as well. My brother's name is Jackson even, which I always think he's named like for Jackson Hole. I'm never exactly sure I should check with my parents on that. I think he is literally named for Jackson Hole. So, it's a place that is very important to my family and we have a lot of great shared memories there. But yeah, so that's kind of where I guess I developed my appreciation for just being able to spend time in places that seemed less touched by other things in the world, being from outside of Atlanta or living in a suburb, it is city life. I think city life is great. But there's also this other aspect of appreciating the wilderness. Before coming to App State, that's kind of been my relationship with the outdoors, but I didn't necessarily participate in a ton of outdoor recreation.

I'd go on like hikes sometimes, but I never backpacked until freshman year. So yeah, that's when I went on my first backpacking trip and yeah, it was just a super cool experience and it became something that I really have enjoyed doing and get a lot out of.

Joy James

Cool. Two things. Did you ever fly fish?

Lauren Moody

I have done fly fishing before. Yeah. I would go sometimes with my dad and my brother when we were at Jackson Hole. Yeah. I mean, it's not something where like, oh my gosh, this is the best thing ever. I would like to do it more because I think it's interesting. And like, like I said, it's something that's important to my dad, especially and his dad and even my brother now. So it's something I definitely would like to do more one day, but I have not done a ton of fly fishing.

Joy James

Well, the reason I asked about some of the research that I've done in the past looks at how people become comfortable in outdoor settings and in particular activities like hunting and fishing don't always translate into the female experience. Unless they have a father or a brother or significant other who might take them out. Then the fact that you've had some of that base experience outdoors and doing some fishing made you comfortable so that you could be uncomfortable in backpacking, right? Like it was building up that skill set. And so kind of transitioning over to your backpacking. It sounds like that's become a passion of yours. How did you find out about it? At App like I mean, what got you? What was the trip or what did you do that kind of lift the fire for you.

Lauren Moody

Yeah. So freshman year it was, it was a big group of people, it was a pretty big group to go backpacking. I want to say it was eight people, which is like a pretty big group, but it was just a group of people I'd been hanging out with. And about half of the people that went on that trip had previous backpacking experience. The other half myself included, had no experience. So it was definitely interesting. That trip as a whole, can I go into it? It was a wild trip, but it remains one of my favorite backpacking memories just because of how wild and kind of poorly planned it was. It turned out to be great. I obviously really enjoyed myself. It was Mount Mitchell outside of Asheville area. We did the Black Mountain Crest Trail; I think it's called. I remember I wasn't really involved in the process of picking the trail or anything because, like, what do I know? I knew that was the trail we were doing and I looked it up before we left. I remember reading it was only for expert hikers. This trail is extremely strenuous. But I never said anything because I was like, “Oh, maybe we were just like not doing that part of the trail. It'll be fine.” But yeah. So, we started hiking at four in the afternoon, maybe, and I think we were planning on hiking like three miles. That was supposed to be like three miles into a campsite and we just could not find the campsite. We just kept on hiking and hiking. The trail was extremely strenuous. It goes over, I think it's like three like ridges. So it'd be like, you're going to go straight up and like, straight down, straight up, straight down. Pretty much. No in between. It’s a ton of rock scrambling. At one point there's even like a rope you have to use to, like, gently repel yourself down.

We just kept on hiking and we were like, “Oh my gosh, where is this campsite?” We were hiking into the night. It was probably like ten when we finally found our campsite. One guy didn't even have hiking boots on. He was wearing sneakers. So yeah, it was just definitely a wild first backpacking experience. I think that's kind of what made it so great. I was like, “Holy crap, I've never done anything like this before. And like, this trail's really hard and like, I'm really struggling and it's difficult, but like, I'm still getting a lot out of it, having a lot of growth from it.”

Joy James

I'm glad you explained that because part of the question a lot of people ask is like, why would you put a backpack on that is 35, 45 pounds, go up and down hills into the darkness and still want to come out doing it again.

Lauren Moody

Yeah, it's a lot I always love. It's like I think it's a recreation management theory, like type one versus type two fun. I love that theory. I think I like backpacking. For me, it definitely has type one fun aspects to it, but it's also a ton of type two fun.

Joy James

Could you help our listeners? What do you mean by type one and type two?

Lauren Moody

Yeah. So, Type one fun. The way I understand it, type one fun is like you're having fun while you're doing the activities. You’re doing it and you're like, “This is great. Nothing's wrong right now. I'm having a great time.” And then Type two fun is during the experience. So, you may be like, “Gosh, this is so hard. I am really struggling. I maybe don't want to be doing this anymore, but like I'm going to push through.” But then you're able to look back on the experience and be like, “Huh! I actually gained a lot out of that. And like even though it was hard, it was good that I did that.”

Joy James

Cool, perfect. Did anyone tell you how to pack your backpack or how did you get your gear? Like, if you've never done it before, how did you go about figuring it out to be able to even get out to the trail?

Lauren Moody

Thankfully, like I said, about half of those people that went on the trip had previous backpacking experience. So, they were able to give me some guidance. And also, my brother had gone to Appalachian State and he was still here in my freshman year. He was a recreation management major largely involved with outdoor programs. He gave me one of his old backpacks. He was also super helpful in the process of preparing me for it, letting me borrow gear and stuff.

Joy James

Recreation majors are all over. I didn't realize you were related to one. I'll ask you about that later.

Lauren Moody

Okay. haha

Joy James

So how many more backpacking trips have you done and have they always been kind of with a group of friends or have you done anything kind of formally with OP or other outfitters?

Lauren Moody

I have not done any with any formal organizations or anything. I would like to one day because I think it's just a totally different experience for sure. Yeah. They all so far have been just with a group of friends or like with my brother. Yeah, but I would one day love to do a trip with an outfitter. I'm definitely interested in solo backpacking. Ooh. Yeah.

Joy James

What are you thinking, AT, Pacific Crest or…?

Lauren Moody

I have been looking into the Pacific Crest Trail a little bit. I don't know if I'll ever actually do it, but I'm definitely interested in it. I think it obviously is an incredibly life changing experience and is an incredibly difficult experience. I kind of like Pacific Crest Trail over the Appalachian Trail, even though they're both obviously incredibly super cool trails and have a lot to offer.

Lauren Moody

This past spring break I was on a backpacking trip where we were on the Appalachian Trail for a few miles and we actually stayed in a shelter on the AT, which was cool because we got to meet through hikers and get to know a little bit about Appalachian Trail culture. But I think the PCT seems a little bit more interesting.

Joy James

So, and then how did you know about the PCT before I asked you or the Appalachian Trail. Is that just your friends again. Is that how you heard about it?

Lauren Moody

Yeah, most of my friends I didn't know much about the PCT until quarantine, actually. It was like, I don't know why. Started looking up stuff about it in quarantine, but it became kind of something. I started researching a little bit. I think I've seen the movie 'Wild' way back in the day and I want to read that book.

Joy James

I would say you need to read that book.

Lauren Moody

Uh huh, yeah. And it's on my list for sure.

Joy James

Another one that's a fun book is, of course, I'm not going to be able to think about it. It's a funny book about a guy. He goes on AT and is overpacked and dumps a lot of stuff. It's less self-help and more funny than ‘Wild’ is. And if I think of it, I'll try to remember before I stopped talking to you.

Becki Battista

Isn’t Lauren great? I think Joy was ready to go backpacking with her! As you think about what Lauren shared, a short walk in nature can be as impactful as a 3-day backpacking trip! Research shows that being outdoors can help with reducing anxiety, stress and increased academic performance! Daily contact with nature not only helps with stress and fitness, it can help you develop comfort in outdoor environments. She also mentions her discomfort with her first backpacking trip. Yet through the struggles she felt she gained confidence in herself as well as had fun despite the challenge.

Today’s podcast is brought to you by the Hope Lab. One of the goals of the Hope Lab is to further understand the impacts of being outside on both physical and mental health and increasing access to the outdoors. Visit appstate.hopelab.edu to learn more.

Joy James

You talked about your major and you're interested in terms of the physical community as well as the kind of the cultural community is backpacking that for you? Is there a community that's kind of that you feel that you're a part of or is it something that's kind of personal for you? Like, how do you see it in the context of your major or your interest as building a community?

Lauren Moody

Yeah, I was actually glad you asked this question. There's some thoughts and feelings I have in relation to outdoor or community building that I was hoping to get to share and talk about, especially in light of what's going on with the Black Lives Matter movement and how that connects to making all spaces in our life more inclusive.

Lauren Moody

And I think that it’s definitely an issue or like a barrier to people getting involved in outdoor spaces is that it's a space that's predominantly dominated by white men or like white people in general, but specifically like white able bodied, cisgender men. So, I think in respect to community building, in outdoor spaces, it's like how can we make it more inclusive for people in BIPOC communities or people that aren't traditionally able bodied. So, I think there's all these different things that go into it and it's like I haven't necessarily felt like unwelcomed in outdoors because I'm white, like I'm cisgender and like I'm traditionally able bodied, but I definitely see it being a space that can be really intimidating for a lot of people to come into.

Joy James

Is there something you could recommend to help us as outdoor professionals or if I’m not able bodied or cisgender or any of those things, how could I get involved or find people who look like me doing this?

Lauren Moody

Yeah. So, I definitely am not an expert on this. It's just something I like and have become interested in especially. With everything going on and like seeing how we can make all these spaces in our life more inclusive. There is an organization that I actually am a monthly donor to that I think is definitely worth people looking more into and like the work they do and what they advocate for. It's called Soul Track Outdoors and it's based out of Washington DC. They do work predominantly in Washington DC, but they like to hold programs that predominantly work on getting people in BIPOC communities involved in outdoor recreation. So, looking for groups like that that are local to your community and have people that look like you and maybe a group like that doesn't exist. So then it's like it's kind of on us as people that do like exist comfortably in the outdoors to look at ourselves and say, “What am I doing to make this a more inclusive space and what am I doing that makes this space feel not inclusive?” I don't know if I have the answer to that. What can we do to make it more inclusive for people that aren't traditionally represented in the outdoors?

Joy James

You know, I think, Lauren, what's so interesting, what you're saying is like, I don't have the answer, but I think we should be thinking about it and figuring out ways to be more inclusive or be more comfortable or start talking, having the conversation and inviting people to these experiences. Like you were invited to your backpacking trip and how do I present it so someone doesn't think I'm crazy that I'm taking 50 pounds and going hiking? And because it could be perceived differently from a cultural perspective. Why would I want to go there with everybody. Yeah. A couple of resources in case you're interested. And just for our listeners as well, there's a group, a woman named Rue Mapp started something called Outdoor Afro. Hmm. And it is what she creates. She's trying to show that black people are in the outdoor settings as well as trying to create spaces so more people are willing to come in and join.

So she has done some amazing things with her organization. I definitely would check that out in terms of how she's been trying to build community within the outdoors and then Latino Outdoors kind of mimicked what Outdoor Afro is doing. I'd heard of Soul Trak and then I knew more recently there's a group, a gentleman who's a reporter and a professor, and he calls it The Joy Trip. And he recently had a panel discussion on black people in national parks. These are panelists who were pretty prominent in the field, all started by a young woman probably your age, just recently graduated who was like, I want to see more people like me in parks and how do we start having these discussions. So, it was nice for me to know that these discussions are going and the frustration is that the discussions are still going. And we want to move it, move the dial. And then one last thing I think is important for you that you'll appreciate as well as our listeners. Have you heard of Pattie Gonia?

Lauren Moody

Hmm. Yes.

Joy James

And she actually was here. They did an event through the student affairs.

Lauren Moody

I saw that but I didn't get to go to it.

Joy James

I Know I missed it too. I was disappointed because it's been fascinating following her on Instagram and for those of you that are with Pattie Gonia, go check it out on Instagram and it's LGBT. I don't know what their identity is other than dresses. It's a male who dresses and becomes Pattie Gonia and it's just the best name to watch his progress and how he's also been getting sponsors from outdoor places to be able to kind of expose everybody to that space.

And be more inviting. So, I think. Yeah.

Lauren Moody

And also they do a lot of advocacy for things like climate change and things of that nature. Like I think Patagonia came out with a video on Earth Day. Have you seen it? I have. It's phenomenal. And I go back and I watch that video sometimes because it just makes me feel tingly inside because I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, that's what it's all about. Like us coming together to solve these issues.

Joy James

Well, it's been fun for me to see that outdoor space used and conceived of in a different way. And I think some of my challenges as a cisgender white woman have been, well, this is how I use it and this is how I always envision that was being used. So, to see these spaces being used in different ways and still valued is what's important at the heart of us being able to protect natural areas. All right. Well, Lauren, so we have this other segment that we're going to end every podcast with, and it's called The Dirt on Getting Outside.

Lauren Moody

Okay.

Joy James

What we're wondering is, what is your biggest fear in the outdoors?

Lauren Moody

Okay. It's absolutely bears. I have a very, very deep fear of bears. Yeah, I haven't seen one yet. And, like, I feel like that makes it like…there's just like a buildup to like when I actually do see one. But yeah, I was in the Great Smoky Mountains for a spring break, which is like a very bear, heavy area. And I was like, okay, this is like, it's going to be the time I finally see a bear and I'm going to freak out. But I didn't see one. So, yeah, I have an incredible fear of bears.

Joy James

I hope your first experience with a bear is positive.

Lauren Moody

Thank you. Yeah, I don't know. It's just like I think bears are like they can basically do anything but fly. Like, they're just the most like, I don't know, the strongest creatures that exist. They're so terrifying to me.

Joy James

Understood, I will tell you, I'm more afraid of bears in the West than I am black bears here.

Lauren Moody

Grizzly bears. Yeah! are like a whole different thing.

Joy James

Yeah, it's a whole other level of fear for me. I agree with you. It's. It's it's. Yeah. So our next question is, what is your most embarrassing moment outdoors?

Lauren Moody

Oh, I don't know. I have to think about this. Just like in general. And, like, I guess this is something, like, interesting to talk about, and, like, even, like, me feeling intimidated in my outdoor spaces, even though, like, I am someone that has a ton of people that look like me, that participate in it, like I don't consider myself a traditionally athletic person. So it is intimidating for me sometimes to like go on these super long hikes and feel like I get more tired than everyone else does.

Lauren Moody

I'm a super slow hiker and like that, I kind of feel embarrassed a lot of times. I'm like, Oh, I'm so slow and everyone else feels like, so much quicker than me. So I don't know. That's not like a moment.

Joy James

No, but you know what? I think you're dead on. I always felt like I'm not going fast enough or I'm not able to keep up. And while it may not be embarrassing, it is an internal, um, kind of, it maybe is an internal embarrassment. And how do I overcome that or keep going out and not beat myself up.

Lauren Moody

Yeah, for sure. You have to overcome it, but it definitely is hard when you're like, “yeah, you feel like all these other people, like they just killed that hike and like x number of times and I'm back here struggling.” Yeah, it's definitely intimidating.

Joy James

That's the word. Yeah, I'm intimidated by it. But, you know, the only thing I would say to you is you're still out there doing it and someone else is not out there doing it. So that is the great thing. What is a must have outdoor tip or item you would take with you if you're going to go backpacking and like what can you not live without when you're on an outdoor backpacking trip?

Lauren Moody

This is an interesting question too. Maybe toilet paper.

I know a lot of people are super intimidated by pooping in the outdoors and like it's super intimidating experience the first time you do it. But I think that everyone should poop in the outdoors basically. I think it's a must have experience in your life. But yeah, I've talked to so many people that have been on multi-day backpacking trips and they're like, I did not poop the whole time because I couldn't bring myself to do it. But I think it's something you should push yourself to do.

Joy James

Agreed. All right. What is your favorite local spot?

Lauren Moody

One of my favorite places. Or like maybe my favorite place I've ever been backpacking, even though I've been backpacking them like Zion in Utah, which is like the most beautiful place. But Roan Mountain, I think, is just a ridiculously beautiful place. And it's also a really great beginner backpacking trip. It's definitely a must go spot because it's accessible to like a lot of different people and also just incredibly beautiful. One of the most beautiful sunrises I've ever seen was on Roan.

Joy James

Roan is like 45 minutes from here. So it's Roan Mountain State Park in Tennessee. Did you do that or was it the Catawba gardens and then you went up that trail? I can't remember if it is the Art Loeb Trail or?

Lauren Moody

I don’t know what it is called, we went to the highest bluff. I think. So it's only like I think, I don't know, maybe like two and a half or like three miles up on the highest bluff. But then you can keep on going. And I think you hit the Appalachian Trail and there's like there's a huge shelter on it, but I haven't been up that far.

Joy James

Okay, so you've made it all the way to that bluff for that beautiful sunrise. (speaking fades out as music rises)

Becki Battista

The outdoors is not always a space that feels welcoming due to a variety of reasons - weather, critters, no cell service, risky, difficult and more. Lauren was able to get into backpacking because some friends invited her into the space and she felt comfortable in outdoor settings. In all recreation, we seek the ability to choose what we enjoy and sometimes that choice is constrained by barriers. Two such barriers are if you do not see people who look like you (gender, identity, BIPOC & etc.) and you do not feel comfortable in outdoor environments. Lauren has some great insights into beginning to overcome these two barriers. For people who are comfortable outdoors, let’s invite people into these spaces with us! For those of us who need to build our comfort level in outdoor settings, take a walk daily on the Greenway or across campus which can help build your comfort in nature. Find social media that builds community and helps you find others who are getting outdoors. Lauren and Joy mentioned several organizations that are helping to connect people with each other to enjoy outdoor spaces See our notes for this episode for links to help you get connected with these organizations.

We want to thank Lauren for sharing her experiences and insights. Thank you for listening to our show today. Remember “Life isn’t about waiting for the storm to pass — it’s about learning to dance in the rain.”

On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity, Dr. Becki Battista, a professor in App State's Department of Public Health and Exercise Science, interviews Heidi Campbell of App State's Counseling & Psychological Services Center and Katie Whitley — now with Wake Forest University Counseling Center — about their experiences and advice on how to gain confidence outdoors.

Transcript

Joy James

Welcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity where we encourage you to Get outside and keep going outside. Here we will share Appalachian State stories that entertain, inspire and inform listeners about living an active, outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story with the goal to get you outside and keep you going outside to improve your overall wellness.

This podcast is presented by the HOPE lab, where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise, and play on health, the environment, and human development. The vision of the HOPE lab is to continue developing the perfect foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise, and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out at hopelab.appstate.edu.

Hi, my name is Joy James, I am a professor in Recreation Management at Appalachian State University and an outdoor lover. I will be your host today. On this episode we will talk to 2 counselors from the App State Counseling and Psychological Services Center. Outdoorosity team member, Dr. Becki Battista, a professor in exercise science, interviews Heidi Campbell and Katie Whitley who provide more details about their experiences in the outdoors, advice on how to get outside and gain confidence in the outdoors.  

Becki Battista

I want to welcome and thank you guys for coming to our podcast. So, Heidi Campbell and Katie Whitley are from App State’s Counseling and Psychological Services Center. We’re going to talk about nature and being outside. So, Katie, let's have you go first. Why did you come to App State and what your favorite outdoor activity is?

Katie Whitley

Well, it's great to be here. My name is Katie and I am completing my doctoral internship here at App State in the counseling center. So that means I'm working here this year. And I think that what drew me to App State was the outdoors. I've always been someone who loves being outside, loves moving my body, loves being in green mountainous spaces. And my favorite outdoor activity is hiking. So the thought of being able to come here and get this amazing training in psychology and counseling and every weekend, like dragging my partner outside to go hiking, I was like, “That sounds like a perfect combination to me.” So that's definitely what drew me here to App State and I've loved it so far.

Becki Battista

Great. Thank you. Yeah, there's lots of places to hike around here. That's, I think, one of the benefits of living in this area. Heidi, how about you? So where are you from? Why did you come to App State and tell us your favorite activity?

Heidi Campbell

Hi, everyone. My name is Heidi Campbell and I am a psychologist and staff counselor at the ASU Counseling Center. I am originally from the Pacific Northwest, so I was born in Seattle, but spent very little time there, moved around a lot in and outside of the U.S. and thinking about my connection to the outdoors, I grew up in a family without much television or video games, so my playground, the outdoors really was my playground. And I think I really thank my parents for instilling that in me and I feel like I  spent my childhood outdoors. I came to Boone and App State over 25 years ago to do my graduate work in App’s Psych department and was really drawn to this area because of the environment and all the natural resources. So I am a real avid outdoor enthusiast. I spent a lot of years in New Hampshire. My family landed in New Hampshire after moving seven or eight different places before I got to high school. We lived in a small town in the middle of the White Mountains, it was a ski resort in the winter. So some of my favorite activities… I do love hiking and camping. More recently, I've gotten really into mountain biking. I would say that is probably what I get most excited about. I love skiing. When we get snow and I get to get out. I have some really old cross-country Nordic gear. So one of my favorite things to do is getting together with a group of women and going out and adventuring.

So just the other day I was able to take it out at the Greenway and tromp around in my old cross-country skis. I like going out to our local ski resorts, mountain biking, hiking, trail running. Pretty much anything that gets me out into the woods or wild places.

Becki Battista

I think the benefit of being here in Boone is we have four different seasons. And so to me, there's not really a barrier to getting outside in any season. I mean, you can still go out in the cold, you can still go out and ski and enjoy the snow. Then, in the summer and the spring, it's just beautiful outside. I like to go on a hikes and to see how beautiful when the rhododendrons are blooming. It's just pretty amazing I think so, yeah. That's pretty cool. So Heidi you kind of talked to us a little about how you first got interested in the outdoors and the influence of your family. Katie, do you have any stories similar to that? Like what really influenced you to get into the outdoors and enjoy hiking and being in nature?

Katie Whitley

I would also say my family. I love hearing you all talk about how you get outdoors in the winter. I'm originally from Florida. I'm struggling, I'm very cold. But I think that my drive to be outdoors and enjoy nature came from my family. We would go on just big adventures or big trips and then we would usually go hiking or going canyoneering in Utah and like lots of different adventures, lots of different seasons and places. And I think it was, I guess, just as a kid it always filled me with that feeling of like, “this is so exciting, this is so new.” I liked being in situations where I kind of felt small. Like when you're looking out on a really big grand, vast, vista, or you're in a really deep canyon, I think as a kid that feeling comes more easily. But even now, as an adult, that's what I like so much about being outdoors is getting to be part of something that's much bigger than myself, and I feel very connected to the present moment when I'm outside moving my body getting my heart rate up. So yeah, I would say my family definitely instilled that in me.

Becki Battista

Yeah. And as I think about that, I'm wondering, you know, what advice would you have for somebody that maybe didn't have a family that got them outside? Like, how do we encourage somebody? I mean, being outside has some barriers to that and can be a little intimidating if you've never been out there. I mean, there's some scary things in the woods. My biggest fear is seeing a bear. I have not seen one in the 13 years I've lived here, but I still look around the corner and wait for that to come out and my friends make fun of me for it. But, it's kind of fun right now to think about it. But then, if it ever did happen to me, I'm like, I don't really know what I would do, but what are some suggestions that you both might have in terms of if somebody hasn't been outside, how do they get started?

Katie Whitley

I think in some ways we really saw this during the workshop that we led together, the nature centered mindfulness workshop in which we met with students in a small group. We were outdoors kind of leading a hike, doing some like five senses, scavenger hunt type things. And because we were kind of leading that, it was a new experience for all of them. I think they’d probably have been outdoors, but maybe they hadn't been to the nature preserve and you know most of them came by themselves. It was a totally new experience. So, I think that sometimes being able to be a little bit vulnerable or putting yourself out there in a small way, you can reap some really big rewards and benefits because we saw how surprisingly, even though it was just an hour and a half, we were like walking around talking that the students really seemed to connect with each other. And we heard them make plans to go have dinner together after this hike. Heidi and I were just so excited to bring that connection to those students. So, I think sometimes doing those activities if you’re new with other people, maybe someone that you already know or trust and also like even if you're trying to start a new friendship or a new idea of going outdoors for yourself, like acknowledging that it can be a little nerve wracking at first, and that's not uncommon.

Heidi Campbell

I would echo, I think often if you haven't grown up or been exposed to that, it doesn't feel comfortable or natural. It can feel more intimidating and daunting than it actually is. It's sort of like I equate it to how I feel a lot of times about technology where it feels like, Really, I didn't, I didn't. I'm not a digital native. I didn't grow up, you know, learning a lot of that. I had to learn it as I go and kind of jumping into it and not being afraid to ask for help, but also just having the courage to give it a try. I think what a lot of people find is that it's not as scary as it seems. Also,  that's how you get more confident and comfortable just by doing it and learning. I remember early on having some kind of hysterical experiences around gear of like the stuff I would bring or not bring and feeling really embarrassed about that. But then you learn next time I'm going to, you know, make sure I have just this one thing that makes a big difference. I think about doing it with other people, too. And if you don't have friends or family or people familiar to you, you know, maybe joining a group like an outdoor program trip or something organized where you have the security of somebody instructing or guiding or providing a gear list. So, just be willing to go for it and take that risk and realize that there are going to be things that don't go great and things that go well and you'll learn from it and next time feel a little more comfortable.

Becki Battista

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I also kind of grew up in a family that really encouraged us to be active and go outside. And my favorite experiences really were at my grandparent’s cabin in the woods and just playing in the woods was just really fun. Then when I came here and I met some faculty members and some friends that go outside, a lot, you know, they started taking me places.  There are still a few friends that I have that I know that they like to take risks and I'm aware of that, but I trust them that everything's going to be okay. Like they know some things that I don't know and I know some things that they don't know. And so in some ways, going with one of them, I know what the activity is going to be. I know that I can kind of rely on them a little bit for my concerns, but I also know that they're aware of my fears too. So, I think going with people is really kind of fun and you learn a lot and then you learn people's strengths and weaknesses and can go as a group. So, I think that's really some great points that you guys bring up. So, we kind of talked a little bit too about kind of becoming comfortable in the outdoors and maybe equipment. So, what is one thing that you always like to bring with you when you go outside? Like, what's that one thing that always needs to come along?

Katie Whitley

Well, I feel like this doesn't fall quite under equipment, but I have been known to get really excited about a hike and just like to jump out into it and not bring any food. So, snacks are really important. I think I get so wrapped up in like, you know, going up the trail, getting really excited and I realize I've left my partner behind and he's like, “Where's the food?”  And I’m like, “I don't have it. I thought you were bringing it.” So, I would say food because I think not being “hangry” helps to keep you in the present moment and enjoying what's going on for you, enjoying the climb, getting up that trail. Actually now I really love stopping along the way and like sitting and having a snack and talking with the people that I'm hiking with and just knowing that like you don't have to rush to get to like the view or the final place. I think the journey is also important and it's important to fuel yourself.

Heidi Campbell

I have several pieces of gear that I love and have become attached to. Like I am very, very in love with my mountain bike. But that's a more kind of elaborate thing. But in terms of just like day-to-day gear, especially if I'm out on something a little bit more extended, warm socks to me just have almost like karmic power. If I'm like on a multi-day or even like a long, long day being able to change socks, even if I'm just out for the day, like I will pack warm fuzzy socks to change into or out of my hiking shoes or boots or my mountain biking shoes or like when I get out on my ski boots. I just I love the comfort of warm socks. I would say in terms of practically probably my raincoat, I learned the hard way early on to not be prepared to stay dry. Gear has come a long way. And you know, I think we're fortunate in this area because we have Re-Gear where people can go, students can go and find more affordable, good gear that is lightweight. I have had like learned the hard way and over the years, just like, have a nice, lightweight, pretty foolproof, rain proof jacket that comes with me that can roll into a little ball and go into, like, a fanny pack or a backpack, but warm socks, knowing that I have those there like to change into, makes me happy.

Becki Battista

Yeah, I have to think about that next time I go out that's a really nice added benefit to on your finishing anything because I know in the summer I like to just take my shoes off. I mean because your feet are just kind of swollen and just feels good. I have kind of a hand thing, so I always like my hands to be warm, so I've got to change my gloves and make sure that my hands are safe, nice and comfortable too. So that's pretty cool. I enjoy your stories and your favorite items that you have. One of the other things we can kind of think about is like, how do you think you’ve become more comfortable in the outdoors? We kind of talked about this a little bit, but are there other ideas about comfort like how did you become more comfortable on some of the things that you have done in your past?

Katie Whitley

I think it definitely helps to have some of those early experiences where I was doing those things with other people. But, I also know that for me, being outdoors brings that sense of curiosity and excitement, like being able to explore, you know, or see something that you've never seen before. Like I've never looked off of this, you know, like Blue Ridge outlook and seeing this, you know, expansive view before. So, it's kind of like I'm really enjoying seeking out those new experiences. So I think it brought me a little bit of comfort to know that like some of these things I can choose if I don't want to go all the way on a really, really long hike that lasts all day long, like, maybe like my body's not up for that today. Maybe for today, I just want to, you know, move my body in a gentle way or what would make me feel really connected to nature today. Sometimes that is a super long hike where you need those warm socks and you need those experiences, but sometimes it's just getting outdoors and driving along the parkway. So, I think even acknowledging for yourself what will make you feel the most comfortable and then kind of building on that over time because there's no one right way to be outdoors. And I think even hearing your experiences, like we all have different experiences of hiking or mountain biking and how long we go for and like what we like to bring, which I think is really powerful. Like if we all went on a hike together, we would all bring different, important pieces that would help us to have a good time and have a great experience.

Heidi Campbell

I mentioned growing up in a family that really got me outside, but I was really blessed to go to a high school in New Hampshire that had a really active outing program, so similar to our local high school here. Watauga Mountain Alliance offers this fabulous opportunity for any student, regardless of financial means, to be able to get out and do regular trips and extended trips. So,  I had a high school that had an out outing club that I was really active in and where we would just go out pretty regularly. I feel like thinking back on that, I got exposed to all different kinds of weather and places and environments that stretched me sometimes. One of the programs that we did in my high school was in the middle of the winter in New Hampshire, in the White Mountains. It was a ten-day program for all during junior year, third year of high school that included a solo experience in the middle. It was a three day solo and when I look back at that, I'm like, yikes, I can't believe they had us all do that I got through that. But so, I think the more experiences you have that kind of stretch you where you realize, “I can, I can be in like a downpour and get through that or be in the cold and learn to kind of survive that or figure out that.” There's so much that is unpredictable in the outdoors and novel. I think learning that you can kind of face those challenges. I think about just spending time. Then, the other piece for me I think is having worked at camps right after college as a like a camp counselor. I led trips and got some learn some hard skills such as like for example just getting comfortable like it was really daunting to me like setting up a tent and a stove and things like that or and so getting some experience, getting some instruction in that to where I just felt like the more, I did that now if I were to try today, I'd have to be really rusty because I haven't done that in a while. So, I think taking advantage of, you know, classes you might take, you know, around, like if you're somebody that gets really excited about it, maybe you decide to take like a wilderness first aid class so that you feel comfortable if there was an emergency that came up or if you're going to be doing more mild outdoor activities, becoming familiar with like reading a map. Just learning some of the skills that just like I had just signed up to do like a bike maintenance class for women because that's an area that feels really scary to me if I'm like out on a trail and I can do basic bike maintenance, but not a lot beyond that. So, I am going to try to do this series of classes where I can really understand how to fix my bike and not have to rely on other people around me, which often tends to be men who have those skills. That's been helpful for me and being more comfortable and getting to pick up some of those skills along the way.

Becki Battista

Yeah, and I think that's a great point, you that there is no one way to do outside activity. You can do activity outside however you want. And I think that's the important piece to think about. You can go stay outside and camp for, you know, a day or five days or you can just go and drive on the parkway and look at the overlook. Any of that still as being outside.

You’re still kind of getting that benefit in terms of mental health, physical health, and just looking at something that's just absolutely beautiful and just breathe. And so I think that's a benefit of us living in the environment and the area that we live in is that we have those opportunities and that's kind of nice because I do think we can do it however we want to do it.

We can be active outside in whatever way fits us best. And then the more comfortable we come with those short bouts, then the longer bouts become a little bit easier and a little bit more comfortable. That's great.

Joy James

Listening to these stories hopefully makes you think about ways you can get outside or new things you wish to try. Putting yourself out there, while challenging, can lead to great experiences, new friendships and an increased self-confidence. Evidence suggests exercise outside can lead to greater feelings of increased energy, motivation and a positive engagement compared to exercise indoors. Additionally, recent research has indicated decreases in tension, anger and depression are also associated with being active outside. One of the goals of the HOPE Lab is to further understand the impacts of being outside on both physical and mental health.  Visit www.appstate.hopelab.edu to learn more.  Now let’s listen to more stories and experiences from Heidi and Katie!

Becki Battista

Okay, so tell us a story about an outdoor experience that has influenced you. It can be something funny, any lesson learned. So, what is one particular event that really kind of influenced you?

Katie Whitley

I feel like I have so many. I am thinking about a time in which I went on a trip with my family and we were canyoneering and like going deep down like into a canyon and then hiking back up probably somewhere within like Utah or like the Four Corners states. It was like an intense experience and it was really fun up until the point that we had to rappel down into like a ravine and no one had prepared me for that. I don't know how to do that. The guides were really kind and really nice. And I watched, I think maybe like my dad went down first and I was like, “okay, I can, I can do that.” A lot of like false confidence there, but I kind of like rappelled down over the edge. And then I looked down behind me, which was my first mistake, and I got really scared. I kind of just like, like a pinball machine, just like pinballed back and forth between the walls of this ravine just hanging on to this rope. And, you know, I made it down eventually, but I think the way that that influenced me is that it was really scary and it was something that came up in the middle of a trip that I was like, I had no idea I needed to do this.

And I think that it really helped to make me feel more, I guess adaptable, but also just acknowledged that, like, you can do hard things and feel a little bit scared and keep going. We still then went deeper into this ravine and then hiked all the way back up out of the ravine and had lots of like funny stories after that. Like my mom’s shoe literally, like, broke open and we had to like tie it together and you know, even to this day, like we talk often about that trip and about I remember that time that Katie was like a pinball, you know, like, you know, being able to share those memories with the people around you I think is really important. So, I feel like that had a big influence on not letting hard things keep you kind of like what you were just saying, like not feeling a bit overwhelmed or scared or nervous, keep you from doing something that will be an awesome experience. Like, did it hurt a little bit? Yes, but it's a really good story that I love that is a part of my family now.

Heidi Campbell

So, I think I mentioned that I spent my high school years in New Hampshire and it's a pretty mountainous state. And there is this legendary area on the side of Mount Washington called Tuckerman Ravine, which is this kind of head wall that you can ski. During certain times of the winter there’s conditions where you can ski it. You have to hike in. It's kind of a big adventure and you hike in for like an hour, an hour and a half with all your gear and then you hike around the side of the head wall and then you can ski down. And so, this was sometime toward the end of high school or early college. I was with a group of friends. Part of why this story is so memorable to me is the people that I was with. Most of my fond memories in the outdoors have to do with the companionship of being with friends or family. And you know, the story, the adventures that you share and the memories that you make. So, this was a group of friends, so we were all pretty young. I think this might have been the first time for most of us up there, but  one of the friends I was with had a dog, their dog with them, and before we knew it, the dog had climbed up and gotten into this really precarious part, like up on the top of the head wall where they were obviously like panicked and we could hear them sort of yelping and they could not get down.

They couldn't go up. They couldn't, they were stuck. And so, my friend and I, without thinking, we were not being very thoughtful or rational as sometimes happens and you know, because this animal was in danger we just started going after it. I think we were probably in our ski boots and were hiking up this head wall and we got ourselves into a really precarious position that could have actually been pretty scary. I laugh about it now, but at the time it was pretty scary where we were sort of hiking and we looked down and there's like running water beneath us, like the meltwater of this snowy head wall that if we had, you know, fallen through could have been really dangerous. So, we look at each other and, you know, we're trying to get this dog and we are just stuck and panicked and like the dog, we can't really go any farther. We can't go back down because of where we were. It all ended up being, okay, somebody came to assist and we got the dog and we were able to get down safely but that adventure stands on my mind because I learned a lot of things and one of them was just the value of being and trusting people that are with you, but also being able to stay calm in situations. Because, I think if we had panicked and tried to really react in that moment, we, you know, might have fallen through the snow that we were on. I think about that often when I'm in situations that scare me or I'll just take a couple of deep breaths and slow down and calm and realize that, you know, I can kind of get myself out of this and rely on other people if needed.

So, it's one story that has stuck with me.

Becki Battista

That is great and we're all happy that the dog was saved, too. Okay. So in kind of our last segment here, we're going to talk about “The Dirt on Getting Outside.” I have a few questions for both of you. And my first question is, what is your biggest fear?

Katie Whitley

Well, coming from living in Miami…living in Florida, My biggest fear is sharks. I'm terrified of sharks. I don't go in the ocean. Let's say it sounds really counterproductive for someone who should be enjoying the ocean. Like, I'm not an ocean life snorkeling kind of girl. Like, really could not. Yeah, I really don't want to go into that.

Heidi Campbell

I do not like feeling out of control. So, I've always kind of lived by this rule. When I’m skiing and mountain biking, I never go faster than I'm willing to hit a tree. I know that sounds kind of strange but I do not like feeling like things are out of control. When I think about being outdoors and some of the activities I do, I tend to like to plan a lot or make less. So even if I'm just going out for the day and my husband, who's also an outdoor enthusiast and my kids will laugh at me, you know, I'll make these lists and I'll pack up the night before to make sure, like, I have everything. So, winging it, you know, just kind of going by the seat of my pants, like, scares the heck out of me. So, yeah, I do not like being out of control.

Becki Battista

Yeah, I can understand that. I'm probably the slowest one going down the hill. I'm great at climbing a hill, but then down the hill I'm like, “Ooh, I don't know about this. It's a little scary.” Yeah, I completely understand. Okay, so the second question for this section is, what is your most embarrassing outdoor moment that you're willing to share with us?

Katie Whitley

I just talked about this with Heidi I said, “I don't think I can share my most embarrassing moments,” so I don't want anyone to know about that. But I'll take a moderate, mid-level, embarrassing moment. On one of the last hikes I went on with my friends from grad school back in Louisville, we set out to go on this really beautiful hike that was a circular hike. And the first decision we could have made, like left or right, we picked the wrong decision. We went on the completely wrong trail that ended up being like an out and back ten miles, which we were not prepared to do. I was like, “Why aren't we going in a circle? Does it make any sense?” So, we got very lost and we ended up having to turn around in a graveyard and we were like in the middle of the woods. So, we laugh about it now, but I definitely remember thinking, “I can't wait to get back to the car. I'm very tired.”

Heidi Campbell

So, I have a tendency to take spectacular falls, like just out of the blue when I am just hiking or backpacking or sometimes running. Sometimes it involves tripping on roots, but I generally feel like I'm pretty coordinated, but when I fall it's kind of like a sack of potatoes. I was out on a trail run on the Mountains to Sea trail, which is a really awesome trail that goes through our area. It iskind of like the Appalachian Trail but it traverses North Carolina, I believe, and just goes right through our community and there's stretches of it that are just so beautiful. So, this was an area east, kind of off the parkway, on the mountains to sea trail. I was running and it was at the end of our run, this beautiful trail, and I tripped. I still don't know what I caught my foot on. I fell so hard that I had mulch from the trail. Fortunately, it was not like Rocky, or particularly there weren't like sharp objects. But I had mulch like in my nose, in my mouth, in my ears. I don't know how I got mulch in so many places. This older couple came up behind me and I think I was kind of in shock and I was just sitting there. I wasn't aware that I was covered in mulch like a Chia Pet. They came up and they were just looking at me like, “What on earth? are you okay? What happened?” I was just kind of like breathing and trying to make sure I hadn't broken any bones. They were looking at me and then I assured them I was okay. I got to my husband who was like way ahead of me, as he always is running…I got to him and he's like looking at me and I realized that have all this mulch like in every, like, space. So, then I realized that's why those people were looking at me like I was some kind of, like, woodland creature. So, one of many embarrassing moments I've had.

Becki Battista

Yeah, I have a few of those stories too, with some rips in my pants, my leggings from falling, you know. You always seem to fall in front of people like you never fall on your own. You always take your best falls when there's people around and you're like, “Oh, great. Okay!”  Thank you both for sharing that. So, my next question is, what is the must have piece of outdoor equipment that you never leave home without, no matter the weather or conditions?

Katie Whitley

I would say my boots, I feel like I have a really good pair of boots now and I finally broke them in adequately. So I just love having my boots. And kind of similar to what Heidi said, I love having socks, but for me, it's not so much the warmth. It's like the funky “funness” of the sock. I like to make my socks bright or colorful or have fun things on them, like mountain ranges, things like that. So, I like to coordinate my outfit with my socks.

Heidi Campbell

I would probably say my water bottle. summer, winter, rain or shine, that's probably something that I would like if I had to pick one thing that I would take with me and also has, you know, some karmic value. I think, like I think of the students that I work with and see when they like come into my office and all the stickers and the ways that you can express yourself with your water bottle that you know, the type of the water bottle, the color and then stickering it up.

But yeah, hydration is good. Don't want to get dehydrated. I've definitely had experiences where I've learned the hard way, where I've gotten out and not eaten or not had enough to drink and definitely paid the price and it doesn't feel very good. So, that would be something I would probably always have.

Becki Battista

Yeah, I think water bottles are kind of like your favorite pen or pencil, right? Like, you can't leave home without it. And it's just that that other pencil just doesn't feel right. I need to have a water bottle with all my favorite stickers on it. Yeah, I totally agree. So, what is your favorite local spot? Where do you like to go? What's your favorite one?

Katie Whitley

I really loved hiking out to Hebron Falls (Boone Fork Trail). The hike out to the Falls is really good and pretty rigorous in some areas. When you get to the base of the falls it is just huge rocks. I think that speaks to what I shared earlier. I enjoy being in front of something that's so big that it makes you feel kind of small and I love that you can climb up those rocks to get to the top where the waterfall is. It’s just an adventure within an adventure. I've been there so far in the summer, which is really hot and really fun. I got to get into the waterfall a little bit and like to cool off. But, even recently, like in the winter time, some of the water was frozen and just being able to have that adventure and have that big climbing experience and all those different seasons was really exciting to me.

Heidi Campbell

So, I really love Moses Cone Park. There's something like 27 miles of these carriage trails. It was in an estate of this blue jean-denim baron I think maybe from Greensboro. It was their summer playground. So, they developed it. They had horses and carriages and they developed all these just beautiful trails. It’s so different. Becki was talking about the four seasons and how, you know, just when you're getting tired of winter, spring pops up and you can start to see the flowers and a little bit of warm sunshine and at Moses Cone, you really notice those seasonal changes. There's some lakes and ponds and so they'll freeze over and the colors in the fall there are just beautiful. So, I have really fond memories of when my kids were really little of going out, having them in their baby jogger type of stroller we had where we could push them or run with them out there and they're nice, like gradual trails. So, it's a nice place to take family when they come to visit who maybe aren't as comfortable on steeper or rockier trails. There are so many different trails that you can, you know, not repeat yourself or do the same loop. You could go out there a hundred times and find something new.

Becki Battista

So yeah, those are my favorite too. I go out there every weekend and run on those trails because they're just simple and it's kind of like it's my safe place, you know, I just it's comfort to me and it feels like home. And just at the end of the week, it allows me to feel kind of more complete. I come home, even though it's cold out or raining out or whatever, I come back home, have my breakfast and a cup of coffee, and I just feel like I finally accomplished something.I just feel so much better. Like, it's just a wonderful feeling. It's my safe place, my sanctity out there. So, as we kind of wrap this up, I do have one last kind of question that we can and a meld a few things together in… If you had one piece of advice for students or faculty staff or really anyone to get outside and expose themselves to nature, like what would be what would be some advice that you would give them?

Katie Whitley

I guess I would want to share that. I feel like the outdoors is for everyone. Like I've always found it to be a very welcoming space. I think that whether that's you experiencing the outdoors by yourself or with a group of people that you know or a group of people that you're trying to get to know better, there are so many things about the outdoors that I feel like bring people together or allow them to kind of sit with their own thoughts. I think a lot of the things many people do, including myself, are geared at making sure that you're not sitting alone with your own thoughts because sometimes life can be really difficult and really stressful. So, I think I like to imagine the outdoors, whatever season it is, whatever it looks like as a space, it's kind of like you were just sharing kind of like a sanctuary and that it's, it's always there to welcome you with open arms if you want to partake in that and that you can engage with it in whatever way feels comfortable or like what feels right for you. So even like what Heidi was sharing earlier, I feel like it allows a good sense of, I guess, like autonomy or control in that way.

Heidi Campbell

One thing I would say is to not let fears or other barriers get in the way of just getting outside, that it can be as simple as just stepping outside of your apartment or residence hall and going for a walk. So, it can be just whatever it is you want it to be or need it to be. It is accessible and welcoming to everybody. You know, I think we spend a lot of time in our heads. It's so easy to get in our heads and too much of that isn't good for any of us. And there's something about being outside. It's like it immerses us in all five of our senses, helps us gain perspective that our problems and issues are pretty small. It has just a wonderful, calming and energizing effect on most everybody. And so just to not let those barriers keep you, it doesn't have to be anything elaborate or fancy or require a lot of gear or you have to have certain skills. Just get out in the sunshine, get out in the wind, get out in the rain. You will learn a lot about yourself and also realize that your fears aren't as big as you think they are…Give it a try.

Becki Battista

I think that's great advice for any of us, really. We do live in a beautiful country, a beautiful area right around here in the Blue Ridge Mountains and the Appalachian region and even our campus is very striking, too. So, I'm very grateful for where we are. Thank you both for talking to us on this podcast today. We will list some resources from your facility on our site, but I appreciate all of your assistance today, so thank you both Heidi and Katie for joining us.

Joy James

We hope you enjoyed listening to Heidi and Katie talk about why they chose to come to App State and learn more about their experiences in the outdoors. Whether you are considering going hiking, mountain biking, or even skiing, think about ways to make it fun.  Bring your must-have-item like snacks and wear something fun like socks that have karmic power. Above all else, just experiment with the outdoors and see what it may bring to you.  After all, the outdoors is for everyone! We want to thank Heidi and Katie for sharing these stories. As we sign off let’s end with a quote from Henry David Thoreau, “I took a walk in the woods and I came out taller than the trees.”

We just want to thank all of our interviewees for sharing these stories. And as we sign off we want to end with a quote and encourage you to get outdoors. From Henry David Thoreau, I took a walk in the woods and came out taller than the trees.

Joy talks cold weather adventures with two outdoor experts on this Appalachian Outdoorosity. Bob Riddle and Valerie Kankiewicz share their perspectives on the best way to prepare for and thrive in the chilliest of outdoor scenarios. Ice climbing, sweating in the snow, David Hasselhoff and last but certainly not least The Legend of the Traveling Jorts all await you! So, come on in! The water is ice. 

Show Notes

Becki

Welcome to the Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast, where we encourage you to get outside and keep going outside. Here we will share Appalachian State stories that entertain, inspire and inform listeners about living an active outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story with the goal to get you outside and keep you going outside to improve your overall wellness. This podcast is presented by the Hope Lab, where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise and play on health, the environment and human development. The vision of the Hope Lab is to continue developing the perfect foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out at hopelab.appstate.edu. Hi, my name is Becki Battista and I am a professor in exercise science at Appalachian State University and a self-proclaimed physical activity addict. On today's episode, we will continue our conversation with outdoor professionals about what to wear when recreating outdoors in the cold and rain. Outdoorosity team member Dr. Joy James, a professor in recreation management, interviews Appalachian State University's outdoor program team who provide more details about types of clothing and the importance of layering, as well as things to consider in a variety of outdoor activities like backpacking and ice climbing. Why have two episodes on dressing for weather outdoors? Because our aim is to have you enjoy the outdoor activity. While discomfort can be part of the outdoor experience, there are ways to lessen being uncomfortable. Dressing for the weather is significant to a person's willingness to continue to try new outdoor activities. And here at Outdoorosity, we are all about getting people outdoors. Let's get to the interviews.

Joy

These are two experts from outdoor programs at Appalachian State University. We have Bob and Valerie. First, we'd like to know, Bob, a little bit about yourself.

Bob

Yeah, so I'm Bob Riddle. I'm originally from southern Ohio, so I grew up in the foothills of Appalachia. I've made my way deeper and deeper here into the mountains over time. Now, kind of in year four of my professional experience here in the outdoors, apart from graduate assistant shifts and working as an undergrad student and outdoors, I'm currently here the coordinator of outdoor programs for Appalachian State University's Outdoor Program at University Recreation. Specifically, some of the things that I do right now is I manage our indoor climbing wall, our outdoor trips program, our broad stone kind of outdoor educational center. And as part of that is our team building challenge course.

Joy

Thank you! Valerie, I think I will go ahead and switch over to you and have you tell us a little bit about yourself before I start asking questions. So give us a little bit of information about who you are, what you're doing, and anything you think's funny or surprising.

Val

Thank you. I am Valerie Kankiewicz and I'm the assistant director for outdoor programs here at App State. In this role, specifically right now, I work most closely with our outing center where we handle all of our gear rentals, trip registrations and items of that nature. In addition, our Bike App program that provides free bike tunings and repairs for the App State community. Overall, I just generally oversee the operations of outdoor programs to make sure that we are flowing smoothly and providing great opportunities for everyone. I have been involved in the outdoors since I was little, but I came from a family that was not very interested in the outdoors. I went to summer camp and really built up my own interest that way and one thing that I think is kind of funny is that I don't really like to watch a lot of TV or movies or music or things like that. So I'm often quite ignorant of a lot of quotes that people will talk about or different things. My first day of my first full time job ever, I was working as an aquatics director and my supervisor said to me, referring to a particular lifeguard of ours, “He's a real David Hasselhoff.” Now, I had grown up in this town and I was like, I recognize that name. I said, “I think I know him. Why would I know him?” And now it turns out he's a famous actor and I didn't know that. So I prefer to spend my time outside and not spend a lot of time with my technology.

Joy

I know a few people like that. Bob, what is your favorite outdoor activity that you enjoy doing? I know you probably have multiple, but if you were to be able to go do something today, what would that be?

Bob

Backpacking. I really got my start backpacking kind of in West Virginia and through the mountains there. It's something that I've always really valued because for the most part it can be pretty low gear intensive. It's certainly a lot of logistical planning, but on a skill level, it offers a wide variety for really anyone to get involved with. It's a great way to connect with folks or disconnect from folks, depending on what you're looking for. So for me, it's backpacking. You know, similar to Val and what she was saying earlier, I don't come from an outdoorsy background originally. I didn't go backpacking until my freshman orientation program. I grew up playing basketball, baseball, football. My original thought of camping was taking your 30 foot family trailer to the county fair and spending a week with farm animals. I'm certainly not a lightweight backpacker. A quote from a student staff colleague of mine when I was just getting into backpacking that has always stuck with me is, “We're not out here to rough it. You know, we're out here to thrive and do the best that we can with each other and with the supplies that we're given.” I got no problem. You know, throw in some tent poles and carrying a bunch of water and a bunch of food to have a good meal outside. So not on the lightweight side.

Joy

I love that you're like, we're here to thrive and not to rough it. And I think often many people think backpacking is roughing it and it's just a different form of camping that gets you out in a different way. And and I love the challenge of being able to carry all that gear. All right. Thank you for explaining that. I am going to ping pong between the two of you. Change it up a little bit, Valerie. So can you tell us what your favorite outdoor activity is? If today you could do whatever you wanted to be doing. What would be your choice?

Val

Ooh, well, that's tough. Somebody I worked with in college leading trip said it best that they were a jack of all trades and a master of none. And I find that defines me. So I really enjoy backpacking. I also really enjoy cycling. I really like winter and outdoor sports. So if I had my option, I would like to go ice climbing. But that's not an option very often. So I'll take cycling or backpacking as well.

Joy

And it sounds like both of you, come from snow areas originally, right? For some reason I have Iowa on my mind. Valerie and Bob, you said Ohio, but it was southern Ohio you're at.

Bob

Yeah, I'm originally from Southeast Ohio, about 45 minutes from the border. Any which direction, south or east you go.

Val

And Joy, you're correct. I went to college in Iowa at northern Iowa and grew up in northern Illinois. I lived in Wyoming for a little bit and between Buffalo and Rochester, New York. So I've seen my fair share of snow.

Joy

And I asked this because I knew my parents were from Iowa, but I grew up born and raised in Georgia. So Snow was an event in Georgia. And to have snow like we have here in Boone, was kind of a new concept to me. And I mean, I've lived in North Dakota, but I didn't understand wearing a hat. That was a new thing to me. It's like people who come from snow know how to play in it, they know how to dress for it. And it didn't stop them from recreating. And that kind of stunned me as a Southerner going, “Why would you tell the snow and ice climb? Doesn't that that sound like it would be a little bit of a challenge?” But, having been in the snow now, I can see why people enjoy that. All right, Bob, so since we're talking about cold weather, how do you typically dress for a workout or backpacking in colder weather?

Bob

Yeah, so kind of a rule and principle. I use and this is going to sound kind of backwards maybe to some folks if they're not familiar with it. But I like to actually dress to be cold during the activity, especially if I'm going to be on something that's going to be multi-day, where I don't have the luxury of, you know, driving home at the end of the evening and getting a hot shower and a hot meal and laying down in the bed. I like the dress cold for the activity. The reason I like to do that is I want to be just comfortable enough I can withstand it, but I want to be cold. So I'm not sweating because after that activity, if I'm going to be camping and I know it's going to be cold that evening, that sweat is going to kind of linger and that moisture is going to, you know, freeze in time. So typical rule of thumb for me is hike cold, camp warm. And so having layers with me, but not necessarily wearing all those layers during the activity. Now during a regular day where I'm not doing multi-day stuff, you know, I'll, I'll just pack on as much or as little clothes as I want knowing I can just simply get in a vehicle at the end of the night or in the middle of the day and go get comfortable anywhere. Some of the other things I like to try and be mindful of is not wearing cotton because cotton will retain that moisture. You know, cotton fibers, if we were to draw them microscopically on a board, look like little macaroni noodles, right? The moisture gets in there and holds on to it, like all that golden liquid in kraft cheese you get and then you just stay cold versus you know, wearing something that's more synthetic, like an under armor or a Nike or any off brand. It doesn't need to be name brand. Anything synthetic is going to help wick away that moisture more easily and kind of keep you drier in the long run and hopefully warmer as a result because of that.

Joy

All right. So Bob let me ask, if you're dressing for cold, what does that mean, one under armor shirt or are you wearing a vest or how do you dress for the cold on a backpacking trip?

Bob

Yeah, I think that's going to be dependent upon each person. You know, for me, I'm a I'm typically a warmer person. I might wear like one layer, synthetic base layer. So like under armor pants, an under armor long sleeve top. And then because I have a backpack on, sometimes I might have a vest but maybe not if I'm doing something pretty extensive that day and not an easier hike., I might not opt for the vest. If I’m doing, you know, some flat trail somewhere I may throw on my extra vest. My biggest encouragement would be, you know, do some day trips on your own. Find out how warm you are, what you can stand then then kind of build that sense of your own baseline around that.

Joy

Thank you. All right, Valerie, how about yourself? How do you typically dress for a workout or your recreational activity in the colder weather?

Val

So much like Bob, I think it's important to kind of dress for the activity. What does that mean? Well, if you're going to be very physically active, you probably should start chilly and then you'll warm up and not have to stop ten, 15 minutes in to take off all these extra layers. And now your base layer, the bottom layer that you're wearing is now soaked in sweat. So I think that helps. But I get cold very easily, so I dress in a lot of layers. So I'm going to start with some sort of base layer that's something synthetic, very close to the skin that can help kind of keep my core warm. And then I'm going to put some layers on top of that. So on a colder winter day, I'm probably going out in a base layer and maybe a fleece over that if it's really cold or especially if I'm maybe sitting around by the creek and enjoying my lunch, I'm going to throw on a down jacket on top of that. Maybe down or synthetic, something lightweight that I can carry easily. That can be expensive, though. Not everybody has one of those lying around. I did not for the longest time. And so just good layers that you can take that are synthetic that you can put on. The down helps a lot because it's lightweight and compactible but it's really expensive. So, depending on your level of activity and how often you're getting out, it might not be something that's worth purchasing for you. Just look for something synthetic that's come a long way in quality and sizes and durability. I think when you think about your bottoms, if it's going to be cold or you're not going to be moving around a lot, that base layer once again and the layer over the top of that, I think it's surprising how warm you can get recreating. When I first started ice climbing in in Iowa, it was often between zero and ten degrees for a high with the wind chills -35. We actually couldn't climb if it got below zero because the ice was it was too cold and it would dinner plate and not work the way that it should. When we're climbing. And I would climb in a base layer and a fleece, and that's when I would climb, I would have gloves on and I had like a base layer and a pair of like the swishy kind of running pants or yeah, I didn't climb in snow pants. Swishy running pants were, were the best option due to mobility. And I would get hot so hot when I was climbing. Now as soon as I came down and I was maybe belaying somebody else, I was throwing out all those layers again. So layers are important. And you talked about hats earlier. I hated wearing a hat. Growing up in the Midwest, never wore a hat unless I was like going sledding for hours. I wasn't going to wear a hat, messed up my hair too much. I went to college and determined that a hat was a necessity to be outside walking around with these excessive wind chills. And I think the biggest thing that I really picked up on was going out on some farms in Iowa late at night, ten, 11:00 at night in January and December. And we would ride the ATVs around to go check trail cams or different things. My friend would always wear two hats and it was amazing what two hats can do when the temperature is around zero degrees and the wind chill significant and you are riding on an ATV. So hats really do make a difference. If you can keep your head warm, the rest of your body will stay warm.

Joy

Yeah, I discovered the same thing in North Dakota first that you could sweat in the snow, which was absolutely absurd to me as a Southerner. Like what? This is cross-country skiing for me. And then the hat thing really helped me. So do you guys have different types of hats like you do gear for different weather?

Bob

Oh yeah. Except where I'm from. I think y'all are referring to what we call a toboggan. So, like a wool hat or a cotton hat that covers the ears? Yeah, I wear, like, a toboggan or something like that. If I'm, like, sitting around outside all day, but my head, like, I sweat through my head very easily if I'm hiking. So typically, like during the day, I might just wear a regular ball cap. To be honest, I also have a lot of hair and my hair is super thick. I constantly when I do get my cut, I have to get it like thinned out it's so thick. So for me, a regular ball cap usually does, and then kind of a toboggan or a warmer winter hat like in camp.

Val

Certainly I went from owning no hats to one hat to too many hats, and I have some really thin hats that I wear when I'm biking and it's cold. I put them under my helmet so it's enough to keep me warmer, especially with that breeze from biking, but it fits under the helmet. Well, and then I have like a fleece hat is really good. Once again that synthetic but fleece, depending on how it's made, it can let alot of wind it, so I also have like a thick wool hat and some of them are fleece lined. So there's definitely different options. I think for the Boone North Carolina region, a decent like fleece hat is probably a good option for being versatile.

Joy

You mentioned something else. When does another factor in some cases, particularly with cycling or if it's a windy or rainy day? So the other thing I just wanted to ask you guys, do you have a preference for rain gear? Do you wear pants when you're backpacking like the rain pants or we've talked about being hot. So what kind of rain gear do you have to keep yourself dry or do you like? Sometimes I find I don't even wear it. I just put dry clothes on later on.

Val

I think it certainly can depend on the temperature. If you're backpacking somewhere really hot and it's raining, you're going to get pretty warm and you're in gear. I do carry rain pants with me most of the time. Personal preference that that I just have found. I enjoyed particularly the convenience of being in camp and being able to be in my dry clothes but like sit anywhere and it didn't matter because I was wearing rain pants. So I have found that to be for me worth the wait when I'm backpacking. I'm not a lightweight backpacker. I definitely like bring all the things that I think are going to be helpful for me as long as I know I can carry the weight and maybe a quick story about the importance of rain gear during bad weather. I was backpacking in New Zealand. We're going up to a mountain. I don't honestly remember what mountain it was. The Rangers had recommended against it that day because of the weather, but we were only there for two days. This was our chance. So there are five of us and we started heading up. It was pouring rain and people were getting really, really hot. So they took off all their rain gear. Now I kept my rain gear on. Having a little different education and background on what we were doing couldn't convince them to do. So we have to turn around and come back down because one of the girls got hypothermia. She had gotten so warm, she took off all our rain gear. But then with the rain, she had gotten so cold, we cut, warm it back up. We had to come back down to go back to the lodge and warmer up.

Joy

Bob, do you have a story about cold weather or rainy weather or weather story that you could share with the listeners?

Bob

Yeah, 2013, 2014. I was leading a trip to Utah and we were actually Southwest Utah in the desert. We were going to be doing the Green and Colorado River backcountry canoeing trip in May. Typically in May it's 90 plus degrees in southwest Utah. For some reason, during this entire trip, there was only one day that didn't rain. It was not when we were canoeing, that's for sure. It was actually about 50 degrees. And so based off the temperatures and planning that we did as a group, a lot of people didn't pack winter or colder weather clothing. And the night before, during our pack out before we put on the river, we actually had a massive rain and lightning storm come in and actually flooded camp and most of the people’s stuff as a result of that, people were pretty ill prepared. We actually had to kind of postpone the trip a little bit and make a leadership decision as a crew. And we put on the river a day later in order to help get people's clothes dried because like Val said, going into an experience where maybe you are getting more wet and being exposed to hypothermia in the situation that she just talked about, we were very well aware that had we put on that day, we would have likely have had multiple people that would have been hypothermic because in canoeing, you're sitting a lot. You can be paddling a lot, but you're you're sitting a lot. And so it's even less active than climbing up a mountain in New Zealand. So for us it was kind of a decision on that. We actually took everyone to a laundry mat and got all their clothes dried before we continued on with that trip.

Joy

I think both these stories illustrate the importance of clothing, but at the same time recognizing that sometimes we have to make decisions based on the need of the group and what's in their best interests. I appreciate hearing the different angles of that. I remember I've been in one where there was a group of us that had dry clothing. I was the group that didn't. And so we literally got all our dry clothes, put it in the tent, and then let the other participants who are wet get our clothing on. So, I mean, I've shared my clothes with people as weird to see someone wearing your clothes around the campsite. It's like, Wait a minute, that's what oh, it's mine. I love that camaraderie and community building that we that we have. I am going to ask a more personal question. Underwear, is that synthetic for you guys as well or how do you guys work that?

Bob

I have multiple different types of underwear. I have synthetic underwear, which I love those specially like in the summer and in the winter, to be honest, I've also had friends who live and die by the no underwear rule. Better dudes. I think it's personal preference with that. I personally have synthetic underwear, but also in the summer. Cotton underwear is not not horrible either.

Val

So I went with everything synthetic initially, but there's a lot of talk about for the female anatomy, how cotton is actually better. And so I still wear my synthetic, but it's something I certainly wonder about at times and think about. I definitely wouldn’t hike in a swimsuit. I know some people do that and it's just thicker and it's a synthetic. But the way that holds moisture in different things can cause a lot more complications. So I do go synthetic, but I can see the argument for cotton or maybe like synthetic with a cotton liner could be helpful as well.

Joy

You know, a lot of times I think people just starting out or kind of like, what do I do? How do I do this? I appreciate your candor and what it comes down to and the discussion that my colleagues and I had and the three of us are having. It really is personal preference depending on the activity that you're doing and then figuring out what your temperature is and what you run and what's in your best interest healthwise. And I think it is important to kind of monitor that as you first starting it out, because you might realize you're not enjoying yourself and then you don't want to do that activity. Whereas if you're dressed appropriately and having a good time, the activity becomes the focus rather than your discomfort.

Becki

Listening to these outdoor professionals Winter and Reindeer preferences makes you really think about what items are most important to have with you when you're active outside from having something you cannot go without to being prepared with layers. Each person provided you with some great insight into how to be best prepared for your activity. I think it's important to think about personal preferences as being comfortable with what you have can also impact what you are doing. Maintaining your core temperature is really a key to staying warm while being active outside. The literature tells us that layering is important to provide insulation and help prevent sweating, overheating, under dressing and staying dry. The colder environment can increase your energy expenditure and cause fluid loss. Synthetic materials like rayon, polyester, nylon and fleece, which are often soft, flexible and lightweight, are great for wicking moisture away and keeping you dry in colder climates. Wool and down are natural options that work well too. In addition, having a hat is important as a lot of heat can be lost through your head. Dressing for weather and outdoor recreation is key to enjoyment. As Bob said, we're not out here to rough it. We're here to thrive.

Joy

So we have this other segment. It's called “The Dirt on Getting Outside.” We ask 3 to 5 questions and I'm going to do this instead of ping pong like I was before. I'm just going to do it one at a time. So Valerie, I will start with you. The first question is in the outdoors, what is one of your biggest fears?

Val

I think one of my biggest fears in the outdoors is the fear I've had since I was a child. I'm more afraid of people in the outdoors than I am of the outdoors. When I would go to summer camp and we'd like sleep outside, I wasn't really scared of the animals or anything or the dark. I was scared that there were like bad people in the woods and around for whatever reason. That's just like this fear of always had. And it's still the thing to this day that that makes me more nervous. I can be out somewhere that's very difficult to get to and that's still my fear. So I always have had that one.

Joy

What is your most embarrassing outdoor moment?

Val

So I think my most embarrassing outdoor moments because there's probably there's been multiple of them and in this particular sense would be, I drink, a lot of water. It's good to be hydrated, though you can also over hydrate, but I then consequently have to go to the bathroom a lot. And that's not always a super feasible option to get off the trail and practice really good LNT (leave no trace.) Or if you're mountaineering, and you're like on a big climb. You don't have a lot of options. So there's definitely been times where I've not gotten out of sight well or off the trail well, and I've had people all of a sudden come along and there I am going to the bathroom, or I know I've had to go to the bathroom in the river because that was the only option. And everybody knows what I'm doing and I’m like, “It's kind of hard to go now.” That's an embarrassing moment in the outdoors.

Joy

A couple of years ago, I went on a trip with outdoor programs and I was so impressed with your student instructors, the leaders, because they did the poop talk and they made it very transparent and actually fun rather than embarrassing or shameful. And like you said, you made me think of that when you're like, I'm in the I'm in the water in the river and everybody knows what I'm doing. And it's kind of like we kind of just go with it. It does open up another way of thinking about going to the bathroom. So thank you for being willing to share that. What is, Valerie, Your must have piece of outdoor gear or equipment that you never leave without. What couldn’t you live without in the outdoors?

Val

A water bottle. And in particular, I like a hydration bladder. That's got the hose and I can just drink water to my heart's content while hiking. It's amazing how quickly I can put three liters down if I've got a hose that can deliver it very easily to me.

Joy

All right. And then here in the Boone area, what's your favorite local outdoor spot?

Val

Favorite local outdoor spot here? This is a tough one. I like water. So any time that I can can get around water. So maybe not one spot in particular. But just like the creeks, Wilsons Creek's got some good swimming holes. Gragg Prong is fairly easy to get to and have a good swim. A cold swim, but a good swim. Wildcat Lake in Banner Elk has a little like swim beach and they have lifeguards there at times. And I think that's a fun like outdoor swim beach location that's closer than Watauga Lake or something of that nature.

Joy

Cool. Thank Valerie. So, Bob, you get the the dirt on getting outside questions next. First question is what is your biggest fear in outdoor settings?

Bob

I think my biggest fear is actually very similar to Val's. So Val has been to New Zealand. I have also been to New Zealand. When we were doing our backpacking portion of our trip, kind of on the Greenstone trek and route also is like hunting territory and we actually were around a lot of hunters that were under the influence of items and wouldn't leave our group alone.

Bob

Actually, for multiple days it almost seemed as if they were following us on the trail at a point. We made phone calls to local wildlife officials to kind of check out these folks’ credentials. So, yeah, I'm with Val. So animals and natural wilderness things that don't necessarily scare me in the way that, you know, some people do and the way that they present themselves at times.

Joy

I completely understand. I’d share more but this is on you guys. So what is your most embarrassing or an embarrassing moment you've had in the outdoors?

Bob

Yeah, this is tough because I feel like I'm a person who is not easily embarrassed, so maybe this is more funny than anything, or a fun just tidbit or story about myself. I don't know how it ever started, but like, you know, JORTS were like always an embarrassing thing, especially like in the last ten years. You think of like your dad wearing jorts out in the front yard with some white New Balances on and it just became a running joke as like student staff back in college that we would jokingly just wear jorts on trip and one day for our multiple day trips I just started packing a pair of jorts and so since like 2012, I have one pair of jorts that has been on every multi-day trip I've ever been on. It is the same pair. My last trip as an undergrad student, I actually wore this jorts the entire trip. So backpacking, whitewater rafting, it just became like this, like living joke that has just become this like traveling story of the jorts.

Joy

That's awesome. All right. So what is your must have piece of outdoor gear that you can't live without?

Bob

So considering, you know, we're talking a lot about outdoor gear and specific to winter, for me, I'm a very warm person, but my feet and extremities get very cold. And for me it is socks...alot of pairs of wool socks. Pro-tip, always keep a pair of like really thick wool socks in your sleeping bag if you're sleeping over night and just only devote them to like sleep. Just putting on that one fresh pair of clean socks at night when you roll into your sleeping bag is like that feel good cozy comfort that just helps put you right to bed.

Joy

Awesome. What is your favorite local spot?

Bob

Val kind of like stole all of mine because I love swimming holes as well. So I would reiterate what Val said with Gragg Prong and then Harper's Creek Falls if I got to go even more local because those can be a bit of a drive up here for some reason, I just really like the Ridge Mountain Carriage Trail because it has some variety, because you can start there at the pond and be on crushed gravel, but eventually make your way up into the pasture.

Bob

And for me, I grew up in a farm in southern Ohio raising cattle and so to sometimes just walk up to some cattle out in the middle of the field, it's kind of nice and takes you back a little bit.

Joy

Cool! I was just out there today hiking. It gives you a quick hike, but without the roots and the rocks and like you said you come across cows and other things. So a couple of things before I wrap this up, I just wanted to mention the listeners. Valerie talked about LNT or Leave No Trace, and I know other programs has some programs on that and we may even do a podcast eventually on Leave No Trace. It is really how to what would you say, how to not behave but ethics for the outdoors. How would you guys say leave no trace? What's a one minute version of Leave No Trace that you would share with the listeners?

Val

Leave No Trace are the the outdoor ethics that you want to participate in when you're recreating outside, whether it's just a park right in your town or community or in the backcountry that will help keep the place more pristine and ready for other visitors to come and have the same enjoyable experience that you were able to have.

Joy

Thank you. My cat is telling me it's time to be done with this. She wants to be fed. So the other part I wanted to give you guys an opportunity to showcase anything you want to say about outdoor programs in terms of getting other students involved or staff or faculty, anything you'd like to be able to share with our listeners?

Bob

So we have our IDP program and what we call our instructor development program. That instructor development program is kind of a yearlong process that kicks off usually in the fall that you apply for to kind of learn to become an instructor and a trip leader with us here at Outdoor Programs, we get through everything, such as the theory behind facilitation and group management and dynamics through risk management and how to plan the logistics of a trip and plan meals and plan routes, as well as all the technical skills that go into activities such as rock climbing, backpacking, whitewater kayaking, whitewater rafting. And those are things that you don't have to have any skill prior coming in to. The instructor development program is beginner like zero to little to the advanced skill possible to get in and be a part of that. We do now have a custom trips program. So you may not want to sign up with a bunch of random folks and go on an open enrollment trip somewhere. Let's say you live together with some folks or you're part of this community that gathers regularly and you've kind of developed that small pod or bubble, you can actually work with us to create your own custom trip in which our guides will help lead you in that expedition.

Val

And gear rentals, too. We're offering what we always have, and we're still offering outdoor equipment rentals. So you want to go have your own outdoor adventure, but you don't own a tent or a sleeping bag or those different items. Or maybe you have gone camping before, but you didn't bring that with you in college because you have limited space. We offer that for an incredibly reasonable rate through Outdoor Programs, so you can check out the gear that you would need for you and your buddies to go have your own experience.

Joy

Thank you. Y'all are an incredible resource at our university. I think a lot of students come here because of the outdoors. So to be able to know that I as a novice can come in and learn as well as rent, and I can also be an expert and learn and rent and work with you guys is really a phenomenal experience. I don't know if you guys noticed in Getting the Dirt on the Outside is really like asking some kind of questions that we don't think about as as people who frequent the outdoors. We enjoy it when they happen. But a lot of people, I think, may not get into the outdoors because they're embarrassed or they don't know what gear they need. So I really, again, appreciate the time you guys took to be able to share a little bit about your own personal experiences, your insights and your professional expertise. So thank you.

Becki

App State’s Outdoor Programs is the place to start or continue your outdoor journey. See our notes for this episode for links to help you with dressing for cold and how to get connected outdoor programs. Thank you for listening to our show today. Remember, life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.