Heidi talks to Huriana Koopeke Te Aho about their large-scale work 'Tuuhonotanga' on the Ellen Melville centre. Huriana's work operates in a context of activism around various issues of social justice as well as affirming ways to consider knowledge, and we discuss their journey in finding the integration of Takataapuitanga with Te Ao Maaori. Next Imogen Taylor takes a call to talk about 'Thirsty Work' at Michael Lett. We discuss future directions and the divides between framing a painterly practice and accessing the less tangible operations that it works with. Theo interviews Ivan Lupi about the durational workshop at The Audio Foundation, 'Not as Simple as it sounds', in which they bring up scales of time in addressing trauma.