"There's nothing more pathetic than the level of emotion in films like Star Wars." When Arthur Penn said that during our 1985 interview, which you can hear on the latest episode of Sachs and the Cinema, he did so as a director who got carved up critically himself – for Bonnie and Clyde, now regarded as one of the masterpieces of American cinema. Regarded as an intellectual artist – in a good way! – he turned out other gems including Mickey One, Little Big Man, Alice's Restaurant and Night Moves. But he increasingly found himself frustrated by Hollywood's dumb-down ways and spent much of his later period in the theater. Hear him candidly discuss his experiences during a trip to Chicago to promote the espionage thriller Target.